Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TDiddy8701
ok let's try another route...

Bort... say you guys buff SHORT passes (let's say 5 yards and under), and give a very minor buff to WR screens... this wouldn't cause passing to see a huge buff (because YPA stays the same, maybe even drops), but everything comes across more realistic (much more realistic, higher completion percentages).

what's the downfall there?

How can they buff short passes any more? The quick hitter SA already is super lethal except for the fact you cant reliably hit targets under 6 yards using 90% of the playbook and risk 1 yard throws on the other 10%.

Originally posted by bhall43
How can they buff short passes any more? The quick hitter SA already is super lethal except for the fact you cant reliably hit targets under 6 yards using 90% of the playbook and risk 1 yard throws on the other 10%.

I'm a bit sleep deprived but I'm sensing some sarcasm here.

Originally posted by Corndog
I'm a bit sleep deprived but I'm sensing some sarcasm here.

Not at all. I dont think you need to buff passes under 6 any more than already is. But with the plays in the book and the way hb/fb passing is in this game its hard to make any kind of offense around it.

Originally posted by Corndog
I'm not sure I'd say deaf ears. I hear you guys quite well. Two owners of pure pass teams with a combined record of 27 and 7 are complaining that passing is too easily stopped.

I can only think of so many ways to say tough cookies.

To be clear, my only posts in this thread were a few in the beginning of it hoping for respces, so Vet teams could try the SAs. Never even mentioned passing. I only came in to clarify when you said Dream Team just threw deep all game long in respond to Myrik's INT post. https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum/thread/5289097?page=14#49703246

Like I said earlier here, Dream Team wasn't even designed to be pure pass, but went that way after the balance change broke rushing in the game. From Pro and all of our Vet run...rushing has been a mess. So yeh, it made sense to ditch the planned Run n Shoot offense and switch a tactical pure pass playbook using largely 2WR/3WR sets, and using speed on post routes/hooks since I had a 97tech/97acc/99con QB. With no repsecs and being at the tailend of our run, not much we can change now. My posts are pretty much always about game mechanics. That's why I try to be specific, post replays, and explain where things are going wrong. This is a "suggestions" thread after all, so one would think suggestions wouldn't be seen as complaining. I don't think passing as a whole is too easily stopped. In fact I said earlier I think aspects of pass defense should be buffed, like the AI in the secondary. This would actually make zone defense viable against the pass ala the Seahawks, and make Man Awareness more effective. The RNG nerfs that throw mechanics out the window are my issue, and pretty much always been in other aspects like kicking, timeout calls, and so on.

Originally posted by bhall43
Not at all. I dont think you need to buff passes under 6 any more than already is. But with the plays in the book and the way hb/fb passing is in this game its hard to make any kind of offense around it.

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/561568/1253897 7 yard curl on short pass

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/561568/1253899 6 yard curl that goes 12 yards.

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/561568/1253989 quick hooks short route 8 yards


https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/561568/1254054 PA comeback pass but he goes deep.


i think you may get the point. i can continue to give you examples of short routes that arent actually 6 yards or under even though they are drawn up that way.

I would say bump up the count to 8 yards and you might get better results but then i worry if short passing would be too good for balanced teams.

Originally posted by bhall43
I would say bump up the count to 8 yards and you might get better results but then i worry if short passing would be too good for balanced teams.

Would love this to happen.

Originally posted by Corndog
Why?

The fact that those handful of plays entirely shut down your offense is on you. Offense controls the game, defense couldn't get away with running a simplistic one dimensional gameplan if your offense wasn't running a one dimensional gameplan.

pretty simple explanation and something i have pointed out for seasons now. if i know EXACTLY what the offense (or defense) is going to do, and spend time crafting a specific gameplan for those exact plays i know will be run, i should have the advantage unless the offense (or defense) changes their gameplan significantly.

in season ~25 (the season apparently that was "perfect" for passing) you could know exactly what 5 passing plays a team would run and still give up 60-70% completion rates for 400-500 yds and 30-40 pts. you could also just pick 3 random pass defensive plays and have about the same exact results. so basically, game planning on defense was near useless and the best you could do was "mitigate" getting blown out and hope your offense outscores the pass spam offense. to expand on that, that means you couldnt risk running the ball much because if that is countered you are not beating the pass spam, so every game vs a pass spam team just became a shootout, which again favors the pass spam team built to do that.

the very blunt response is that pure pass teams are not gimmicks, but they are easy to build and easy to run, which is why they should be easy to counter. now we finally have the ability on defense to properly counter exactly what we know is coming and you cant just override that by subbing out te drive for wr hook (or running "28 passes" lol)

the answer to this is not "passing is broke plz fix" its "in the current state of the game, how can pure pass teams succeed in throwing off a defense?"

examples - fix screens, screen plays to be countered by "outside run" play tag instead of "pass" play tag, hb passing improvements, buff to WR SA's (like head fake), and maybe finally implementing the CB coverage settings (tight, balanced, cushion. tight vs screens/short, balanced vs 10 yd pass plays, cushion vs 10+ yd pass plays like 4wr go routes. defense expects deep and goes cushion and pass team switches it up and adds screen passing, its going to be a bad day for the defense)

ill have to do a run down of all the short passes ive done today and which ones actually targeted a receiver 6 yards or less but it feels like ive completed at least 60% of those passes using a cpu quarterback and wide receivers. Only human TEs. Just cant get consistent throws under 6 yards is all.

Originally posted by Sov.
Examples - fix screens, screen plays to be countered by "outside run" play tag instead of "pass" play tag, hb passing improvements, buff to WR SA's (like head fake), and maybe finally implementing the CB coverage settings (tight, balanced, cushion. tight vs screens/short, balanced vs 10 yd pass plays, cushion vs 10+ yd pass plays like 4wr go routes. defense expects deep and goes cushion and pass team switches it up and adds screen passing, its going to be a bad day for the defense)


I'd like to see all of these suggestions implemented.

Originally posted by Sov.

the answer to this is not "passing is broke plz fix" its "in the current state of the game, how can pure pass teams succeed in throwing off a defense?"

examples - fix screens, screen plays to be countered by "outside run" play tag instead of "pass" play tag, hb passing improvements, buff to WR SA's (like head fake), and maybe finally implementing the CB coverage settings (tight, balanced, cushion. tight vs screens/short, balanced vs 10 yd pass plays, cushion vs 10+ yd pass plays like 4wr go routes. defense expects deep and goes cushion and pass team switches it up and adds screen passing, its going to be a bad day for the defense)


This is actually exactly what I think. Fixing screens, short pass routes(as bhall has pointed out, they don't work right), are things mentioned in suggestion threads before. The RNG effect on WR/CB separation is by far the biggest issue for me. If a WR gets steps on a DB and the throw is accurate, that should be a high% opportunity. If a WR is double covered then that should be a low% opportunity. I don't think Head Fake should be buffed, but On an island should be buffed for DBs. That way you wouldn't need RNG nerfs, but actually allow the builds to dictate coverage.

Defensively, the secondary AI needs an upgrade like we saw with pathing. Would open new worlds for DCs if the could actually use zone plays. Half the playbook is rarely used because passing kills zone D. And coverage tactics seem like a no-brainer.

does zone defense truly need a buff? GE makes it work pretty well.

Couple Notes on the new SA's.

YAC Attack - seems to work well although I haven't actually built anything towards it. Have seen it fire quite a bit in pup games though.

Pick Six - Haven't seen it fire yet. Anyone?

Cover Expert - A definite improvement over Chase Down. Been some debate where it is most useful however it does now serve a purpose.

Inspire Fear - Anyone have any replays of this at gold? Haven't been able to make a punter yet.

Opportunist - Had it at gold on all my guys and had strip tech up to 70+ on them. Seen it very few times in all the games I ran. I wish this SA wasn't so dependent on a gang tackle.

Slot Machine - Nice upgrade.

Quick Hitter - Huge Upgrade.

Stiff Arm - Nice Upgrade.

Sure Footed - Have tried it on HB, CB, OT, and WR. All at gold level with good footwork.

For HB it does fire frequently however you may be better off with Mr Reliable instead as that also gives you anti fumble protection.

For CB it also fires consistently and does seem somewhat helpful at times. Tough to argue one way or another.

Similar for WR, it fires but at the cost I am unsure the worth considering other SA's available.

Awful SA for anyone in the trenches. Almost never see it fire unless you are in space.

Resolute - Also fires a lot everywhere. But I still wonder if it is all that useful. Some thought that it protected you from spin move dline guys but it fires post spin move.

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/555387/931048

Line Crasher - Another nice addition. It does work towards its intention.

Rough Cover - Seems like it takes a lot to make it fire a decent amount. But what is it really impeding? I have a full secondary of guys that fire it consistently but doesn't seem to really have much of an effect on the WR's at this point. I guess ill push coverage skills on my guys the rest of the season and see if that makes much difference. Really puts your builds at a huge disadvantage when you have to pour so many skill points into intimidation to get the SA to fire enough and then you are left for a bare bones minimum for coverage skills.

Originally posted by bhall43
does zone defense truly need a buff? GE makes it work pretty well.

Zone Awareness could probably use a little buff, Man too. Quite a few Man Coverage plays have the safeties and/or LBs in zone coverage. Would be nice to see them react better. There are some quality plays in the zone playbook, but can't be used because they're too much of a liability.

I rocked Inspire Fear at gold on BSBs run with S* defenders. Also didnt go full on power as I wanted more attempted returns. We got a few ST FFs out of it. I have it on our punter again. It does not hurt to have it IMO.