Warrior General Games

Originally posted by SAGA45
Originally posted by Ken1


There is a counter to it: High Confidence.

Are you serious? That'd be the same argument against Thick Skin, would it not? Yet there it is - a viable and available VA counter against Snarl, Growl, Trash Talk and Glare.

Plus, wouldn't 'Higher Carrying' make 'Mr. Reliable' obsolete? Wouldn't 'Higher Strength/Carrying' make Bruiser obsolete? 'Higher Catching' a counter against Long reach? Yet we still have Bruiser, Mr. Reliable, and Sure Hands.

Really, is a counter to Helmet Crash really all that tooth-pulling difficult to imagine being added to the list? I think not. I know my original idea to have Big/Monster Hit be turned against themselves was arcadish - but realistically - a VA counter to Big/Monster Hit that dampens their morale effects isn't too much to ask for and should be implemented when you consider there exists no counter to them currently and there's a VA that doubles their effectiveness (tired of stating this to be honest). You know I'm right, especially if you're as much of an advocate of balance as you claim to be.


Originally posted by Ken1

You also had one in there to cause everything but intimidation that costs morale to have a lesser effect, not just Big/Monster Hits.

You must be referring to 'Broken Will'. Here it is again:

----
Broken Will (Offense/RB)
Defenders absolutely loathe tackling this powerback in the second half. Each level of Broken Will grants a +5% chance to cause a 2nd half -10 morale loss, -10 energy loss, -10% tackle chance, and -10% to the effectiveness of Monster/Big Hit for every tackle that defender misses against that back in the 1st half due to a stiff arm, lowered shoulder, or power through.

Requires 800 fame, 60 strength, and/or 50 carrying
----

For one it's 5% chance VA that would take a lot to even be made available - 800 fame + 60 strength + 50 carrying. On top of that it'd only affect the defender(s) who missed a tackle against that back in the 1st half. As for penalties, are they too extreme? Should confidence - say 50 or so - be added as a pre-requisite? I'd rather discuss it and work toward something more doable. As I stated earlier, I'm open to dialogue on these and finding a way where they could be implemented into the game.


Originally posted by Ken1


SA's shouldn't be magic bullets that allow people to get by with low numbers in stats like Confidence.

Which is why in my original post of the Hulk idea, it's stated that the proposed prerequisite for it was 50 confidence and 50 stamina. So It's not as if it'd be a SA easily made available, especially for people who want to "get by with low numbers in stats like Confidence" or stamina - people like those who've invested VP in and maxed out Helmet Crash, for example, since Helmet Crash has no confidence or stamina (mental attributes) requirement. Yet it doubles the morale(mental) effects of Big/Monster hit? C'mon Ken1...really? At the very least, each level of Hulk should dampen the effects of Big/Monster hit by 5%. I don't see how you couldn't find that agreeable.



So you're saying take it down to 25% of normal if it's maxed? That's ridiculous.

Much better is to let power backs inflict damage to the Morale/Stamina of those who try and fail to tackle them. I could go along with that, and even suggested something like 3%/level to cause -5 Energy and Morale to anyone whose tackle is broken through Power Thru or Lower The Shoulder.

So that's the balance: You can hit their morale, too. But I don't want to see morale damaging SA's effectively nerfed.

And the one I referred to as an "everything" cure was:

Originally posted by SAGA45
Bad Memory(General)
This player refuses to let a bad play effect him mentally. Each level of Bad Memory reduces the morale and energy effects of negative plays (ints, deflections, sacks, fumbles, missed tackles, catches against, pancakes, etc) by 5% when they happen to this player.

requirements: 40 confidence

There you only require 40 Confidence and apply it to everything, and when maxed it's 75% morale protection. Way too strong.

Originally posted by Chysil
Originally posted by Ken1


I also like Headline Maker in some form, but more along the lines of:

3%/level each off day during the season to increase fan support by 1 point in a random income group, plus gain +5 fame for the player....

But 1%/level each off day during the season that he says something to the press that angers his teammates and causes a 2 point chemistry drop for his team (both in overall and the unit he's on).

Prereq: 900 Fame, 50 Confidence.

the idea is to help teams gain income, and while yes, fan support helps I'd also like to see a bit added to concession sales of the jerseys etc



I agree about helping teams gain income. I don't mind your idea as to how, but I think improved fan support is probably the best way to accomplish that goal.

Originally posted by TrevJo
I like the Streaky VA and have used it some of my guys, but I have always felt it wasn't implemented the right way. The way it is now I feel like you have to max it or not have it at all. Instead of each point of streaky increasing the chance of a hot streak by 2%, I'd rather see Streaky players always have a 75% hot streak change (25% cold streak chance), but each point adjusts the attributes by 0.3% or 0.4%. If maxed, it would have basically the same effect as it does now. But in-between, it would seem more realistic... players with a few points in it would only have their play be somewhat streaky and players with it maxed would have far streakier performances. (Whereas now players with 1 point in it are wildly streaky and players with 15 points in it are actually more consistent.)

I've thought about similar things, except with 70% hot/30% cold and 0.5% per point. I tend to agree that it would be better not to force Streaky to be all-or-nothing as it is now (no one would take just a couple of points of Streaky; you either max it or you don't take it).

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by SAGA45

Originally posted by Ken1



There is a counter to it: High Confidence.

Are you serious? That'd be the same argument against Thick Skin, would it not? Yet there it is - a viable and available VA counter against Snarl, Growl, Trash Talk and Glare.

Plus, wouldn't 'Higher Carrying' make 'Mr. Reliable' obsolete? Wouldn't 'Higher Strength/Carrying' make Bruiser obsolete? 'Higher Catching' a counter against Long reach? Yet we still have Bruiser, Mr. Reliable, and Sure Hands.

Really, is a counter to Helmet Crash really all that tooth-pulling difficult to imagine being added to the list? I think not. I know my original idea to have Big/Monster Hit be turned against themselves was arcadish - but realistically - a VA counter to Big/Monster Hit that dampens their morale effects isn't too much to ask for and should be implemented when you consider there exists no counter to them currently and there's a VA that doubles their effectiveness (tired of stating this to be honest). You know I'm right, especially if you're as much of an advocate of balance as you claim to be.


Originally posted by Ken1


You also had one in there to cause everything but intimidation that costs morale to have a lesser effect, not just Big/Monster Hits.

You must be referring to 'Broken Will'. Here it is again:

----
Broken Will (Offense/RB)
Defenders absolutely loathe tackling this powerback in the second half. Each level of Broken Will grants a +5% chance to cause a 2nd half -10 morale loss, -10 energy loss, -10% tackle chance, and -10% to the effectiveness of Monster/Big Hit for every tackle that defender misses against that back in the 1st half due to a stiff arm, lowered shoulder, or power through.

Requires 800 fame, 60 strength, and/or 50 carrying
----

For one it's 5% chance VA that would take a lot to even be made available - 800 fame + 60 strength + 50 carrying. On top of that it'd only affect the defender(s) who missed a tackle against that back in the 1st half. As for penalties, are they too extreme? Should confidence - say 50 or so - be added as a pre-requisite? I'd rather discuss it and work toward something more doable. As I stated earlier, I'm open to dialogue on these and finding a way where they could be implemented into the game.


Originally posted by Ken1



SA's shouldn't be magic bullets that allow people to get by with low numbers in stats like Confidence.

Which is why in my original post of the Hulk idea, it's stated that the proposed prerequisite for it was 50 confidence and 50 stamina. So It's not as if it'd be a SA easily made available, especially for people who want to "get by with low numbers in stats like Confidence" or stamina - people like those who've invested VP in and maxed out Helmet Crash, for example, since Helmet Crash has no confidence or stamina (mental attributes) requirement. Yet it doubles the morale(mental) effects of Big/Monster hit? C'mon Ken1...really? At the very least, each level of Hulk should dampen the effects of Big/Monster hit by 5%. I don't see how you couldn't find that agreeable.



So you're saying take it down to 25% of normal if it's maxed? That's ridiculous.

Much better is to let power backs inflict damage to the Morale/Stamina of those who try and fail to tackle them. I could go along with that, and even suggested something like 3%/level to cause -5 Energy and Morale to anyone whose tackle is broken through Power Thru or Lower The Shoulder.

How about this:

Hulk (Offense/ requires 50 confidence and 50 stamina)
Each level of Hulk gives a +3% chance to cause a -5 energy/morale loss to defenders on tackles broken with Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder, and a +3% chance to weaken the morale effects of Big/Monster Hit SA's by 50%.

- Incorporates both our ideas
- Big/Monster Hit would still be 50% effective against this - so no essential 'nerfing' of defensive SA's.
- A nice, balanced, two-pronged counter against Helmet Crash
- Prereq's place big emphasis on both Confidence and Stamina

Originally posted by Ken1

Originally posted by SAGA45

Bad Memory(General)
This player refuses to let a bad play effect him mentally. Each level of Bad Memory reduces the morale and energy effects of negative plays (ints, deflections, sacks, fumbles, missed tackles, catches against, pancakes, etc) by 5% when they happen to this player.

requirements: 40 confidence

There you only require 40 Confidence and apply it to everything, and when maxed it's 75% morale protection. Way too strong.

I agree. Let's raise the confidence pre-requisite to 50 and lower it from 5% to 4%/level. That way, more emphasis is placed on confidence and you get 60% morale protection against all negative plays which still makes this VA worthwhile to both equip and max but isn't absurdly strong.

Originally posted by SAGA45
Originally posted by Ken1

Originally posted by SAGA45


Originally posted by Ken1




There is a counter to it: High Confidence.

Are you serious? That'd be the same argument against Thick Skin, would it not? Yet there it is - a viable and available VA counter against Snarl, Growl, Trash Talk and Glare.

Plus, wouldn't 'Higher Carrying' make 'Mr. Reliable' obsolete? Wouldn't 'Higher Strength/Carrying' make Bruiser obsolete? 'Higher Catching' a counter against Long reach? Yet we still have Bruiser, Mr. Reliable, and Sure Hands.

Really, is a counter to Helmet Crash really all that tooth-pulling difficult to imagine being added to the list? I think not. I know my original idea to have Big/Monster Hit be turned against themselves was arcadish - but realistically - a VA counter to Big/Monster Hit that dampens their morale effects isn't too much to ask for and should be implemented when you consider there exists no counter to them currently and there's a VA that doubles their effectiveness (tired of stating this to be honest). You know I'm right, especially if you're as much of an advocate of balance as you claim to be.


Originally posted by Ken1



You also had one in there to cause everything but intimidation that costs morale to have a lesser effect, not just Big/Monster Hits.

You must be referring to 'Broken Will'. Here it is again:

----
Broken Will (Offense/RB)
Defenders absolutely loathe tackling this powerback in the second half. Each level of Broken Will grants a +5% chance to cause a 2nd half -10 morale loss, -10 energy loss, -10% tackle chance, and -10% to the effectiveness of Monster/Big Hit for every tackle that defender misses against that back in the 1st half due to a stiff arm, lowered shoulder, or power through.

Requires 800 fame, 60 strength, and/or 50 carrying
----

For one it's 5% chance VA that would take a lot to even be made available - 800 fame + 60 strength + 50 carrying. On top of that it'd only affect the defender(s) who missed a tackle against that back in the 1st half. As for penalties, are they too extreme? Should confidence - say 50 or so - be added as a pre-requisite? I'd rather discuss it and work toward something more doable. As I stated earlier, I'm open to dialogue on these and finding a way where they could be implemented into the game.


Originally posted by Ken1




SA's shouldn't be magic bullets that allow people to get by with low numbers in stats like Confidence.

Which is why in my original post of the Hulk idea, it's stated that the proposed prerequisite for it was 50 confidence and 50 stamina. So It's not as if it'd be a SA easily made available, especially for people who want to "get by with low numbers in stats like Confidence" or stamina - people like those who've invested VP in and maxed out Helmet Crash, for example, since Helmet Crash has no confidence or stamina (mental attributes) requirement. Yet it doubles the morale(mental) effects of Big/Monster hit? C'mon Ken1...really? At the very least, each level of Hulk should dampen the effects of Big/Monster hit by 5%. I don't see how you couldn't find that agreeable.



So you're saying take it down to 25% of normal if it's maxed? That's ridiculous.

Much better is to let power backs inflict damage to the Morale/Stamina of those who try and fail to tackle them. I could go along with that, and even suggested something like 3%/level to cause -5 Energy and Morale to anyone whose tackle is broken through Power Thru or Lower The Shoulder.

How about this:

Hulk (Offense/ requires 50 confidence and 50 stamina)
Each level of Hulk gives a +3% chance to cause a -5 energy/morale loss to defenders on tackles broken with Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder, and a +3% chance to weaken the morale effects of Big/Monster Hit SA's by 50%.

- Incorporates both our ideas
- Big/Monster Hit would still be 50% effective against this - so no essential 'nerfing' of defensive SA's.
- A nice, balanced, two-pronged counter against Helmet Crash
- Prereq's place big emphasis on both Confidence and Stamina

Originally posted by Ken1


Originally posted by SAGA45


Bad Memory(General)
This player refuses to let a bad play effect him mentally. Each level of Bad Memory reduces the morale and energy effects of negative plays (ints, deflections, sacks, fumbles, missed tackles, catches against, pancakes, etc) by 5% when they happen to this player.

requirements: 40 confidence

There you only require 40 Confidence and apply it to everything, and when maxed it's 75% morale protection. Way too strong.

I agree. Let's raise the confidence pre-requisite to 50 and lower it from 5% to 4%/level. That way, more emphasis is placed on confidence and you get 60% morale protection against all negative plays which still makes this VA worthwhile to both equip and max but isn't absurdly strong.




We're getting somewhere on Hulk, except that I don't accept anything that counteracts Big and Monster hits. It's getting a bigger energy/morale loss (-5) on broken tackles compared to -3 from Helmet Crash, so it shouldn't make Big/Monster hits any less devastating. That was why I suggested the bigger morale loss. The only way to counteract Big/Monster hits should be Confidence.

So, I'll even raise the energy/morale loss slightly higher, as there really are punishing backs, and accept Stiff Arm even though it doesn't really belong with the other two, as it's not a pure power move. I'm putting "additional" energy/morale loss because there already would be some on a broken tackle. I also made the requirement Strength, and that would be one that just about anyone who would use this VA would meet.

Bad Memory I think is a purely bad concept.

Hulk (Offense/ requires 60 strength)
Each level of Hulk gives a +3% chance to cause an additional -6 energy/morale loss to defenders on tackles broken with Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder.

Originally posted by Ken1
We're getting somewhere on Hulk, except that I don't accept anything that counteracts Big and Monster hits. It's getting a bigger energy/morale loss (-5) on broken tackles compared to -3 from Helmet Crash, so it shouldn't make Big/Monster hits any less devastating. That was why I suggested the bigger morale loss. The only way to counteract Big/Monster hits should be Confidence.

So, I'll even raise the energy/morale loss slightly higher, as there really are punishing backs, and accept Stiff Arm even though it doesn't really belong with the other two, as it's not a pure power move. I'm putting "additional" energy/morale loss because there already would be some on a broken tackle. I also made the requirement Strength, and that would be one that just about anyone who would use this VA would meet.

Bad Memory I think is a purely bad concept.

Hulk (Offense/ requires 50 confidence and 60 strength)
Each level of Hulk gives a +3% chance to cause an additional -6 energy/morale loss to defenders on tackles broken with Power Thru, Stiff Arm, and Lower the Shoulder.

Yeah we're getting somewhere. Problem here is that you simply don't want there to be any protection against Big/Monster Hit despite Helmet Crash doubling their effects plus a -3 morale/energy loss and no mental attribute requirement. That's unacceptable. Helmet Crash doubles their effects...Hulk slashes those effects in half - balanced. It's really that simple.

Hulk (Offense/ requires 50 confidence and 60 Strength)
Each level of Hulk gives a +3% chance to cause an additional -5 energy/morale loss to defenders on tackles broken with Power Thru and Lower the Shoulder, and a +3% chance to weaken the morale effects of Big/Monster Hit SA's by 50%.

- Incorporates both our ideas
- Stiff Arm removed
- Dual pre-req of 50 Conf and 60 Str makes Hulk harder to obtain thank Helmet Crash
- Additional Energy/ Morale loss at -5 which compensates for the dual pre-req and removal of Stiff Arm
- Big/Monster Hit would still be 50% effective against this thus there is no essential 'nerfing' of defensive SA's.
- Places emphasis on confidence - a key mental attribute
- A nice, balanced, two-pronged counter against Helmet Crash


As for Bad Memory, if anything, it could be tweaked more but the concept is a good one as it could be used on both sides of the ball.

Would love to get Staz' thoughts on these. Would like Bort's input as well but I know that's unlikely.

I guess where we differ is that you may think that for every VA there should be a VA that does the opposite.

I don't think that's how it should be.

Helmet Crash elevated Big/Monster Hit SA's to what IMO they always should have been. I can see letting power HB's do the same sort of thing to those who want to tackle them, but not a VA that basically just does the opposite. There has (even this season) been a problem with HBs' being able to get too many carries in a game, etc..

I think Ken makes a valid point. I did request to balance out the VAs, but there are simply VAs that aren't "balanceable". I haven't read through the conversation, so I'll have to get back to you on who I side with lol

GLB is beginning to lose my interest

Originally posted by Staz
I think Ken makes a valid point. I did request to balance out the VAs, but there are simply VAs that aren't "balanceable". I haven't read through the conversation, so I'll have to get back to you on who I side with lol

lol Yeah it's a lot. Hulk came quite a ways from it's initial form. You'll see that once you get time to read through it all and I'd appreciate the input. As for my last proposal, I stick by it. I think it's quite solid.

Yea! A VA named after me!

Any word if they're gonna add more VAs this offseason? Seems like we were hearing a bunch about it last season and then we got a bunch of new ones.

I think the game needs about twice as many, to really create true diversity.

I think high stepping should be added as a special skill or vet ability. It seems powerbacks are impossible to tackle from the front or back which should not be the case. I can totally see them powering through players in front of them. I can also see them dragging some players but if somebody dives at their legs they should fall forward.

I think high stepping should be a skill that a player needs to invest in to be good at avoiding being tackled from behind. Right now any powerback can break tackles when being chased. I think the more agile backs should be better at this than the slower powerbacks. I could be wrong. Its just a thought.

Originally posted by HULK
Yea! A VA named after me!

lol! No doubt

Staz, have you had a chance to look over the 'Hulk' debate yet?

Sorry if something similar has been suggested, but there need to be counters to Quick Feet and Clever Instincts for defenders:


Quick Reaction - This player isn't easily fooled. For each level of this VA, the player gains a 2.5% chance of NOT being faked sucessfully.


In a season where Tick/Dooley/Baggins are running wild faking the shit out of everyone, this VA is much needed.

Pancake Stacker (Oline)- for each level in this, the player gains an extra .1% likelihood to pancake for each pancake he executes in a game for a maximum of +15% to pancake.

Quick on Your Feet(oline)- Each level decreases the amount of time a dline's stun moves leaves you stunned for by 2%. Also makes you .5%/level less likely to be stunned.

Michael Phelps (Dline)- This player is king of the swim move. This increases the players likelihood of conducting a swim move by 1%/level. Also increases the amount of time it leaves the opponent stunned for by 1%/level.

Jack the Ripper (Dline)- This player rips the oline apart. This va increases the players likelihood of conducting a rip move by 1%/level. Also increases the amount of time it leaves the opponent stunned for by 1%/level.

I have a problem with the way Never Give Up is currently. I think it should be used for offense, defense, AND special teams.

Originally posted by
Never Give Up - Get back in the play! Each level of Never Give Up gives a +3% bonus to the speed of getting up after falling down on defense.

I don't see why Never Give Up should only be on defense...?

Seems like it could be an excellent VA for an OT or a Special Teams coverage specialist too, and it makes sense in football logic.

Anybody should have the ability to get up quickly.