Warrior General Games

here's the thing though.

does manning make the receivers, or do the receivers make manning?
cause harrison had less than 1000 yards a season before manning came in, then after, he's always had over 1000 yards except for last season cause he got injured

and wayne came after manning.

and manning has pretty much had over 4000 yards each season except for like... 2 times

Originally posted by ddingo
Originally posted by Beaker



Exactly. The game of football was so much more violent then. This "west coast" style of football, short little dinks and dunks to move the ball upfield with high comp % and YAC would have NEVER worked in the 70s, 80s and early 90s. You did NOT throw to a WR when he was near a linebacker because the linebacker would KILL him.



The WCO took root in the mid to late 80's. The offense isn't based on dinks and dunks. It is based on exploiting matchups with the defense. There are incredible variants within the WCO which has made it so popular.

Bill Walsh = WCO ... I think it worked pretty well for San Francisco during a significant part of the era you've mentioned.
Ah, this is my age shinying through here. I am only 18, but I have watched a lot. . .a LOT of old games and have tried to make sure I am as knowledgable about football history as anyone, but I look at the WCO in its current form, and it looks like a lot of passes over the middle against man to man defenses, and a lot of passes to the outside against zone defenses. Try that crap in the earlier days and you will not have many WRs left.

And kadafitcd, I respect your opinion and certainly see it as a defendable one, but Brady has only done it for 7 years. If Brady suffered a career ending injury in week 1 this season, would he be a hall of fame QB? Yeah, probably. But would he be consistered, years down the road, one of the greatest to ever play? I highly doubt it. As I said, I think he will prove himself as one of the greats in the next few years, but I want to see those next few years before I toss him into the mix.

Originally posted by Beaker


And kadafitcd, I respect your opinion and certainly see it as a defendable one, but Brady has only done it for 7 years. If Brady suffered a career ending injury in week 1 this season, would he be a hall of fame QB? Yeah, probably. But would he be consistered, years down the road, one of the greatest to ever play? I highly doubt it. As I said, I think he will prove himself as one of the greats in the next few years, but I want to see those next few years before I toss him into the mix.

I agree. I am sure Tom Brady will be a hall of famer but I wanna see what he does the next few years before I toss him on a top 5 all time QB list.

As for my top QB's of all time I look at it this way. If I owned an NFL team and I could go back in time and have any QB I wanted my list would be as follows:

Dan Marino
Joe Montana
John Elway
Bret Favre

So those are my top 4 in that order.

#5 is tough. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young are all possibilities.

Originally posted by Doomsday

#5 is tough. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young are all possibilities.


Troy Aikman is NOT a possibility. If he was not on those awesome Cowboys teams he would have been known as a decent QB. He never had more then 23 TDs in a season and his career totals were very mediocre. Look at his career stats:

http://members.aol.com/bluekate/troybio_stats.htm

Now, I know that stats are not everything. He was a good leader on a cowboy's team that needed a mature hand but he is certainly one of those guys who got into the hall of fame on Super Bowl rings alone and should definatly NOT be talked about as one of the best of all time.

Originally posted by Beaker
Originally posted by Doomsday


#5 is tough. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young are all possibilities.


Troy Aikman is NOT a possibility. If he was not on those awesome Cowboys teams he would have been known as a decent QB. He never had more then 23 TDs in a season and his career totals were very mediocre. Look at his career stats:

http://members.aol.com/bluekate/troybio_stats.htm

Now, I know that stats are not everything. He was a good leader on a cowboy's team that needed a mature hand but he is certainly one of those guys who got into the hall of fame on Super Bowl rings alone and should definatly NOT be talked about as one of the best of all time.

I'm a massive Cowboys fan and I actually agree with this. The Cowboys were the elite team they were because of their O-line and their defense.

I'd put Randall Cunningham in the mix, along with Theisman and Unitas before I started talking about Aikman and Steve Young.

Can't forget about Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr either...

Originally posted by PhireHawk
I'd put Randall Cunningham in the mix, along with Theisman and Unitas before I started talking about Aikman and Steve Young.

Can't forget about Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr either...

Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach as well. . . ..should Tom Brady be on this list? Manning? Meh, screw them. Bernie Kosar.

Originally posted by PhireHawk
I'd put Randall Cunningham in the mix, along with Theisman and Unitas before I started talking about Aikman and Steve Young.

Can't forget about Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr either...
Cunningham and Theisman, lol? Are you on medication? What did they ever do but get beat down by Aikman and Youngs teams. Maybe they should have outplayed those guys when it counted if they wanna be ahead of them on the list.

Originally posted by SAVAGE OPS
Originally posted by PhireHawk

I'd put Randall Cunningham in the mix, along with Theisman and Unitas before I started talking about Aikman and Steve Young.

Can't forget about Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr either...
Cunningham and Theisman, lol? Are you on medication? What did they ever do but get beat down by Aikman and Youngs teams. Maybe they should have outplayed those guys when it counted if they wanna be ahead of them on the list.



When did Theisman play against Aikman or Young? Maybe you are on medication. What Phirehawk is saying is that those QBs all belong in the middle of the pack not in the discussion about the 5-10 best QBs of all time. Aikman and Young are in the top 50 for sure but where is debatable. Hell if we are going to talk greatest passers of all time we need to talk about Sammy Baugh and Cecil Isbel!

Originally posted by Sir William PD
Originally posted by SAVAGE OPS

Originally posted by PhireHawk


I'd put Randall Cunningham in the mix, along with Theisman and Unitas before I started talking about Aikman and Steve Young.

Can't forget about Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr either...
Cunningham and Theisman, lol? Are you on medication? What did they ever do but get beat down by Aikman and Youngs teams. Maybe they should have outplayed those guys when it counted if they wanna be ahead of them on the list.



When did Theisman play against Aikman or Young? Maybe you are on medication. What Phirehawk is saying is that those QBs all belong in the middle of the pack not in the discussion about the 5-10 best QBs of all time. Aikman and Young are in the top 50 for sure but where is debatable. Hell if we are going to talk greatest passers of all time we need to talk about Sammy Baugh and Cecil Isbel!


greatest passer?

jerry rice.

no competition man

Originally posted by Beaker
Originally posted by Doomsday


#5 is tough. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young are all possibilities.


Troy Aikman is NOT a possibility. If he was not on those awesome Cowboys teams he would have been known as a decent QB. He never had more then 23 TDs in a season and his career totals were very mediocre. Look at his career stats:

http://members.aol.com/bluekate/troybio_stats.htm

Now, I know that stats are not everything. He was a good leader on a cowboy's team that needed a mature hand but he is certainly one of those guys who got into the hall of fame on Super Bowl rings alone and should definatly NOT be talked about as one of the best of all time.

I agree with you to a point. The reason I would consider Aikman is that he had a very good completion percentage during his career and didn't throw many interceptions. Although I don't think he got as many oportunities to throw the ball as most QB's do because of Emmitt Smith. Especialy in the red zone.

In reality I would probably have 5.Jim Kelly 6.Warren Moon or vice versa. #7 Could arguably be Troy Aikman or Steve Young imo. As for Joe Theisman and Johnny Unitas I don't know much about since I started watching football at the age of 11 in 1990 so those guys are before my time. As much as I'd love to I haven't watched alot of older gameplay besides those of Jim Brown.

No love for Y.A. Title.

That's a tragedy. He is the father of the forward pass. He never won a championship though.

As for the greatest of all time, I am a firm belieever that Joe Montana was the best to ever line up behind center. Followed closely by Marino and Elway. To leave Brady out of the conversation of top 5 is ludicrous. He has only been doing it 7 years but they have been an amazing 7 years. Manning and Favre are also right there for the top 5. And I have to agree with Warren Moon being in the mix. He ran the WCO as well as any of the Walsh teams. For as good as Steve Young turned out to be he wasted away behind Montana for a long time. Imagine if he had been a starter since year 2, then this conversation may go a whole new direction. Aikman was completely a product of his team. Plug almost any serviceable QB into that role with leadership quality and you have the same results. All that team needed was a leader to level out the multiple personalities on that team and Aikman fit that mold perfectly.

Originally posted by Doomsday
Originally posted by Beaker

Originally posted by Doomsday



#5 is tough. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young are all possibilities.


Troy Aikman is NOT a possibility. If he was not on those awesome Cowboys teams he would have been known as a decent QB. He never had more then 23 TDs in a season and his career totals were very mediocre. Look at his career stats:

http://members.aol.com/bluekate/troybio_stats.htm

Now, I know that stats are not everything. He was a good leader on a cowboy's team that needed a mature hand but he is certainly one of those guys who got into the hall of fame on Super Bowl rings alone and should definatly NOT be talked about as one of the best of all time.

I agree with you to a point. The reason I would consider Aikman is that he had a very good completion percentage during his career and didn't throw many interceptions. Although I don't think he got as many oportunities to throw the ball as most QB's do because of Emmitt Smith. Especialy in the red zone.

In reality I would probably have 5.Jim Kelly 6.Warren Moon or vice versa. #7 Could arguably be Troy Aikman or Steve Young imo. As for Joe Theisman and Johnny Unitas I don't know much about since I started watching football at the age of 11 in 1990 so those guys are before my time. As much as I'd love to I haven't watched alot of older gameplay besides those of Jim Brown.




Dan Fouts was considerably better than Kelly or Aikman and I would put him on par with Young and Moon.

...overrated.