Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Raid
I think you are strawmanning a bit here, it's not just the top team from a tier who has to face people uptier from them. Not at all.

The teams not at the top of a tier are already getting destroyed by everyone else in their tier, so losing yet another game is rarely a concern. It's always the leaders of a tier complaining about how unfair it is to lose a game by 10 points to a tier above them. Meanwhile they are destroying people in their league by 50 points every game.

And ELO already adjusts to favor teams at the top of the league playing up. The first few ladder games are a shitshow because most teams have more or less the same ELO because it averages the tier together every season. Even within the same tier, the best teams will randomly be playing the worst teams in the first ladder game.

I might be open to shielding the first couple ladder games since the ranking is garbage at that point anyway.

Originally posted by Corndog
The teams not at the top of a tier are already getting destroyed by everyone else in their tier, so losing yet another game is rarely a concern.

It's always the leaders of a tier complaining about how unfair it is to lose a game by 10 points to a tier above them. Meanwhile they are destroying people in their league by 50 points every game.

And ELO already adjusts to favor teams at the top of the league playing up. The first few ladder games are a shitshow because most teams have more or less the same ELO because it averages the tier together every season. Even within the same tier, the best teams will randomly be playing the worst teams in the first ladder game.

I might be open to shielding the first couple ladder games since the ranking is garbage at that point anyway.

That's a good solution, so long as the ELO really isn't pulling teams like it used to.


Just a few seasons back on the chamrs, we beat the #1,2,3 ranked teams on ladder - in fact only losing once in our tier on ladder all season. We finished in 8th place because toward the end of the season we ended up playing 2 games back to back out of our last 4 ladder matches of the season... against teams 2 tiers up from us. We had been in 4th due to facing uptier teams quite often that season.

I mean, if we can stop things like that happening, then I'm all for just a little tweak.

Originally posted by Raid
That's a good solution, so long as the ELO really isn't pulling teams like it used to.

Just a few seasons back on the chamrs, we won our league and beat the #1,2,3 ranked teams on ladder - in fact only losing once in our tier on ladder all season. We finished in 8th place because toward the end of the season, at rank 4 (from having to face teams up-tier too much) we ended up playing 2 games back to back out of our last 4 ladder matches of the season... against teams 2 tiers up from us.

I mean, if we can stop things like that happening, then I'm all for just a little tweak.

But again, ladder is a global ranking, not a tier ranking. Not playing globally in a global ranking completely breaks the global ranking. It's also going to be less accurate and prone to luck because it resets every season, so it's pulling from a smaller sample of games.

The difference between between rank 4 in the tier vs rank 8 in the team might seem big, but the difference between 32nd and 36th global ranking isn't that big of difference.

Originally posted by Corndog
But again, ladder is a global ranking, not a tier ranking. Not playing globally in a global ranking completely breaks the global ranking. It's also going to be less accurate and prone to luck because it resets every season, so it's pulling from a smaller sample of games.

The difference between between rank 4 in the tier vs rank 8 in the team might seem big, but the difference between 32nd and 36th global ranking isn't that big of difference.

It is in terms of how many skill points each team gets to spend.

As I said though, if it's not pulling teams 2 tiers down to face you, and it's giving the cross tier stuff a break off the bat so that ELO can settle a bit, that'd be fine imo. I'm sure a lot of people would be fine with it so long as we stop the egregious stuff.

Originally posted by Raid
It is in terms of how many skill points each team gets to spend.

That's irrelevant. If you can't defend your rank, you should lose rank until you can.

The issue is having a small sample of competitors combined with a small sample of competitions. There's too few teams playing too few games to have a completely accurate representation of their true rank, therefore inconsistencies and bad luck will inevitably be a big part of rankings.

Originally posted by Corndog
But again, ladder is a global ranking, not a tier ranking. Not playing globally in a global ranking completely breaks the global ranking. It's also going to be less accurate and prone to luck because it resets every season, so it's pulling from a smaller sample of games.

The difference between between rank 4 in the tier vs rank 8 in the team might seem big, but the difference between 32nd and 36th global ranking isn't that big of difference.

The current global rank 35 team is playing a ladder against the global rank 20 team. There are currently 22 teams capable of being matched without regard for tier. using that the as our REAL ladder the 6th ranked team is playing 20th ranked team. I'm sure its just coincedence that global ranking is split EXACTLY at the tiers.

Originally posted by Corndog
That's irrelevant. If you can't defend your rank, you should lose rank until you can.

The issue is having a small sample of competitors combined with a small sample of competitions. There's too few teams playing too few games to have a completely accurate representation of their true rank, therefore inconsistencies and bad luck will inevitably be a big part of rankings.

this is kinda what i was saying about the ranking system not having enough player teams to function properly right?

Originally posted by Raid
It is in terms of how many skill points each team gets to spend.

As I said though, if it's not pulling teams 2 tiers down to face you, and it's giving the cross tier stuff a break off the bat so that ELO can settle a bit, that'd be fine imo. I'm sure a lot of people would be fine with it so long as we stop the egregious stuff.

you cant stop the eregious stuff until the matchmaker values global ranking over forcing a different opponent and even then odd matchups will happen even after the couple weeks of elo settling

You'd actually have to have the ladders be completely separate at first, then combine them all after the grace period - or else a team in a tier above who lost all their games in the grace period will still just drop way down into the rankings of the other tiers once you open them up.

And you'd have to add 'bonus points' to the tiers above so that when they all get added together - the bottom team from the higher tier is still above the highest team from the lower tier.

Basically you add the score of the best team from the tier below, plus a couple more points, to the current score of all teams in the tier above. Rinse repeat until you have all tiers on.

Then, you'd have a good stack up to work from... but I'm not sure how the 'score' works anyhow to make that possible... but you could also reset the matchmaker here and then you'd still only have the possibility of facing the same team twice, and once up front in the grace period so you won't roll them twice right before you have to play them in the playoffs or anything. - which iirc was why people were pissed about playing the same teams over.

I'm more annoyed by playing League opponents in the ladder. I don't mind playing up or down tiers, it is what it is and we've beat this bush a few times before over the years. I do like the idea of adding a cpu league for each tier to at least give us a few more teams added into the equation. It would make weaker teams to play against if you go up tiers potentially, and I really don't care if I beat up on them as long as I'm not having to replay the same league teams over and over.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I'm more annoyed by playing League opponents in the ladder. I don't mind playing up or down tiers, it is what it is and we've beat this bush a few times before over the years. I do like the idea of adding a cpu league for each tier to at least give us a few more teams added into the equation. It would make weaker teams to play against if you go up tiers potentially, and I really don't care if I beat up on them as long as I'm not having to replay the same league teams over and over.

Absolutely agree. I hate playing league opponents in the ladder. We played a team 6 times one season including 4 out of the last five games.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I'm more annoyed by playing League opponents in the ladder.

And that's another piece of user feedback, people weren't happy playing their league in ladder, so now it prioritizes teams not in their league.

Fwiw, last season the Sooners played Miamisburg for the Journeyman league title and we lost to them, and then the next game that was our closeout ladder game of the season we got Miami again for back-to-back games; ended up beating them there. Was kind of a decent consolation for losing the league title game, because we beat them for the ladder Journeyman title game

Originally posted by Corndog
And that's another piece of user feedback, people weren't happy playing their league in ladder, so now it prioritizes teams not in their league.

Was gonna say, I’ve not seen the problems with repeat games or playing too many from your league. Those seemed like problems of the long past.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
I'm more annoyed by playing League opponents in the ladder. I don't mind playing up or down tiers, it is what it is and we've beat this bush a few times before over the years. I do like the idea of adding a cpu league for each tier to at least give us a few more teams added into the equation. It would make weaker teams to play against if you go up tiers potentially, and I really don't care if I beat up on them as long as I'm not having to replay the same league teams over and over.

Yes, this has been discussed many times before and it’s a lot better than it used to be. Previously there were two full seasons of crap (seasoned and journeyman). Now that seasoned tier has been removed the only bad tier is journeyman because you either play your own tier or you play up. Pro can play up or down and it seems they play down more often.