Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TxSteve
Wanted to re-visit a look at Counters now that we are 20% of the way into the season. Just picking a few games here and there - but trying to make sure I pick competitive games.


DA vs Freakville this morning:
)
(freakville was hit and miss on other counters with BI shut down but WI weak being good)





I love that when something works its OP but when my shit gets shut down it just "hit or miss" how about some objective reporting on the subject, not just sensationalizing when it works big.

Originally posted by Jagat0r
I love that when something works its OP but when my shit gets shut down it just "hit or miss" how about some objective reporting on the subject, not just sensationalizing when it works big.



As you may have noticed -- the OP was originally going to look at non trips counters...but very early it became apparent that was going to be more work than I was interested in doing and it was going to get very complicated. I did include Freakville's 11 trips counters for 8.3 ypc...so I'm not clear on why your panties are in a bunch.

Looking at your whole season - I do see that you run a lot of counters of all varieties.
39 trips counter
22 SB Big Counter
20 WI Counter weak
20 BI Counter Sweep Left
1 SI Counter Sweep Weak

Accounting for 102 of your 168 outside rushes on the season (60.7%)

So I guess that explains it. You don't want anyone threatening your precious counters.

No what Im saying is Big I Counter Sweep Left ran 7 times for crap, so yes while trips counter is broken not all counters are. But where the subject started about all counters on a different thread, now its basng the success failure of all counters just on the one we all agree is broken. I could care less what they change or dont change you can go back through all my teams seasons if you like you will find I change plays alot. The point is if were discussing just Trips Counter being broken then lets clarify that. If were discussing all counters being broken lets give DA credit for shoving my Big I Counter Sweep Left back up my ass. But lets not call it hit or miss because that isnt a true evaluation of that counter in that game.

Originally posted by TxSteve
As you may have noticed -- the OP was originally going to look at non trips counters...but very early it became apparent that was going to be more work than I was interested in doing and it was going to get very complicated. I did include Freakville's 11 trips counters for 8.3 ypc...so I'm not clear on why your panties are in a bunch.

Looking at your whole season - I do see that you run a lot of counters of all varieties.
39 trips counter
22 SB Big Counter
20 WI Counter weak
20 BI Counter Sweep Left
1 SI Counter Sweep Weak

Accounting for 102 of your 168 outside rushes on the season (60.7%)

So I guess that explains it. You don't want anyone threatening your precious counters.



This thread isn't going as planned is it? Much like most of the D coordinators in this game, you showed up with a lazy plan and it quickly fell apart.

not at all -- got 3 pages of chatter...mission accomplished.


I think they are broken at the moment -- but I don't have any team! So if you guys are having fun spamming them over and over..and if corndog thinks they are working --- then more power to ya!

Spam 'em if you got 'em!

Was PORN bringing in the No Name guys planned all along, or a response to counters being good?

Originally posted by Fumblerooski
Was PORN bringing in the No Name guys planned all along, or a response to counters being good?

Response to both Rob and my apathy towards having a significant number of teams - wanted to consolidate, and it made a ton of sense given the eventual build limitations that were going to catch up with a lot of my players due to poorly planned builds at onset.

Obviously, the fact that PORN had a weak run game and No Name's run game was strong was a contributing factor. Plan was always to bring the whole O-line over and the HB. Reality is that teams which cannot run the Counters right now are tactically at a significant disadvantage.

Alright, before I'm MIA for a few days traveling I'll post my unbiased as possible opinion on Counters.


I absolutely do think they need tweaked, but not drastically at all. They are easily slowed down, don't think you can stop them every single time no matter the play but I can list quite a few pass plays that are the same. I absolutely believe the reason they look so effective(from a YPC perspective) is because defensive coordinators don't realize they can actually run more than 1 play in a game. The entire point of a balanced offense is to make the defense guess what they are going to do, if you are looking for 1 play that is good vs everything then that's wrong. You don't have to sell out every single time to have an effective defense, something as simple as a 50% Short 50% Outside play can be extremely effective. I don't believe we need to drastically change the game because most teams keep rolling out the same plays that we know do not work against them.

The second biggest factor IMO is builds, back when the Stunners and QC were leading the ladder lolRun defense bars were 100+. With passing being the king the past few seasons defenses have moved away from strong run defenders to better pass defenders. You can absolutely do both if you choose, or you build a team to be great at either pass or run and pretty average at the other. Look at a team like BSB who is a great team, they miss a ton of tackles. They missed 17 against DD and missed 11 against Bronx, yet still did pretty well at slowing down counters against both teams. At the same time, holding both DD and Bronx to there lowest point totals this season.

On the topic of lolRun defense bars, stop wasting a significant amount of points into Hold Ground. It may make that rush defense bar look great, but it's not a great investment compared to other attributes.

Hold Ground = Pass Rush Power

Last thing, obviously Counters are more of a big play threat than passing now and passing seems more consistent than running. That is probably backwards, as long as that is true in GLB2 then these YPC and YPA/C conversations are pointless. You can run TE Post 10 times, complete it 60% of the time for 10 YPC and 6 YPA, run Trips Counter 10 times with 9 gains of 0-3 yards and 1 80 yard TD and get skewed results. You can't just look at the end result of something, broken tackles, pancaked defenders, and bad play calling all play a part in this discussion.

Good points.

I know we (and others) were able to completely shut QC down when we got a DE to 70 blitz awareness and good tackling skills.

How much of the reduced run D lol bar is caused by the reduction in run blocking potential? Meaning 100 run D bars aren't needed anymore since the run block tech/power universally dropped (10+ points??) I don't know.

I know we go round and round on this -- and I understand your position -- and I do think you understand my position (even though we don't completely agree with each other which is ok)

I think counters are probably fine as well. The problem for me is that the defenders don't do what the play art says they will do (follow their blitz path until passing a blitz awareness check). Back in the QC days - the way to shut down their counters was to run Cover 1 man under 43 (if I recall). That is kind of counter-intuitive -- common sense would tell me some kind of strong overload will shut down a counter to the strong side.

That is where I think the game has a problem. New owner getting burned by counters (back in QC days) - and the answer becomes "build a good DE and run 43 cover 1 man under" - and now GLB is more puzzle than football sim.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/231005

think this game is a great example of OP counters.

I ran otuside 90% of the time (may be less i havent done the scout) against a guy trying to use contain.

Now we all know contain sucks really but its the exact problem something like contain should not be giving up 13 YPC to a HB that only broke one tackle. So its not like my HB is going and doing anything special to get there. New players are not going to know why contain is not working against such a simple play

I've just taken advantage of poor logic and made my gy so quick he cant get caught when the counter fakes someone

Thanks Mutt - good example. And I don't know the dawgs owner (Ben240) but that is the kind of thing that would make a new owner think "f this bs"

If they are so op please run nothing but counters vs MeM and see how well it goes, I'm betting it turns out poorly.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
If they are so op please run nothing but counters vs MeM and see how well it goes, I'm betting it turns out poorly.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
If they are so op please run nothing but counters vs MeM and see how well it goes, I'm betting it turns out poorly.

I'll wait for zombies vs MeM

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
If they are so op please run nothing but counters vs MeM and see how well it goes, I'm betting it turns out poorly.

Checked the 3 teams I expected to use the Counter/Pass combo (Rocktopus, Hawaii, Central). Long story short, you have not faced a good Counter/Pass team yet, and you've barely even faced counters period this season, out of any formation. I have no idea if there's a good Counter/Pass team in Vet this season, but right now there's no real data to tell if you can defend against a counter/pass team yet.

No 2WR Counters, against any of those 3 teams
Only 1 2TE Counter, in any of those 3 games (9 yard gain cause he runs out of bounds)
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/233460/554366

Some 3WR counters, against them
Against Rocktopus you generally shut his counter game down:
Your LE's made some great plays against this Guard:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/117389 (self explanatory)
Plays in question:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/233460/554050
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/233460/553516
Your Under Sam Mike Blitz did fairly well, but also got gashed for 75% completions through the air.

Against Hawaii, they only ran two counters in the 3WR set:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/232814/371041 (4 yard gain)
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/232814/370048 (13 yard gain)

However you also allowed 62% completions against their 3WR passing.

Zero 3WR counter plays used by Central. But you allowed 64% passing, perhaps expecting them to use counters.