Warrior General Games

DA just faced MEM and Central back to back, they sold out on every WR formation against MEM to stop the run and every formation besides 3 WR against Central. Against those formations where they decided to stop they run they held those teams to the below stats.


100 Rushing Attempts
3.34 YPC
16 TFL
334 Yards total

This was against 2 of the top rushing teams in Vet, are we really lobbying to go back to where you can stop rushing with every play in the playbook again?

It would be nice if blitzers didn't get so terribly fooled. That would be my solution for helping to slow those plays down. But it's not just blitzers that get fooled by counters. Zone defenders, man defenders, players in contain and blitzers all get fooled on every single play.

So simply telling people to not blitz counters isn't going to fix the problem either. All kinds of non-blitz plays that should do decent get burned by counters.

Originally posted by Parab00n
So we want to go back to LBs blitzing to the QB no matter if he sees the HB with the ball running up the middle of the field? A counter play is designed to momentarily get a defender out of place to give blockers more time to set up a wall.

Yes - a blitzing outside linebacker should not (unless he had some kind of super high blitz awareness in my opinion) jump ship and be stopping a dive. That should be a rare, rare case - not an automatic.

Look at just this one play posted earlier (first I looked at of the 3)
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/215414/1937044

LOLB is supposed to be outside blitzing on the OLB blitz. He doesn't even make it to the line of scrimmage before he cuts across directly along the line of scrimmage. at 21 ticks the HB has now changed directions. It isn't until tick 28 that the LOLB finally makes a change of direction...but he turns the wrong way (toward his own secondary). Tick 35.5 until the LOLB is once again facing the ball carrier. AT 35.5 there is not a single defender on the strong side of the field.

There is no contain...and the flock of seagulls chasing the ball all bunch up and trip over each other - just like the old GL roll out / GL sweep days.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Fix ur schemes and run zone so you can be better at stopping these outside runs.

fyp

I got bent over with no lube against the trips QB rollout. LBs would pursue the QB and then just get hung up on WRs and do the cha-cha.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
this. but tx steve is right that blitzers are getting fooled by counters instead of blitzing their gap like they should. wonder if its due to them ignoring blitz awareness though?

It is due to the blitzers running to the "point" where they will meet the ball carrier, be it 5 feet in front of them or across the field to the other sideline. They just run along the shortest path to that "point". That shortest path is through their side of the ball (between the D-Line and LBs) not around the offensive line where they started blitzing.

Originally posted by Parab00n
That doesn't make sense, Counters are made to beat blitzes.

No they aren't. At least not in real football. Counters are used to flow 2nd level defenders into easier blocking paths. It has nothing to do with beating run blitzes. Counters excel against teams that overpursue to what they think is the "playside", but they've always been weak against "backside" defenders either staying home or blitzing from the side the RB intends to go back towards.

It's part of the whole backside contain thing. Let's say you've got a counter to the right, the RT leaves the LE unblocked and instead downblocks the DT. LB's see the RT blocking the DT and suddenly their gap assignments shift "playside" so they have to catch up. That sets them up for the counter. If the LE abandons backside contain and flows down the line, then a counter would be fantastic. If he keeps backside contain (in case of things like QB keepers or bootlegs), then he'll be in a better spot to stop the counter than he would have previously. If the LE crashes down the line (think run blitz attacking the mesh point of the HB and QB hand off), then he'd destroy any HB counter for a huge Tackle For Loss.

Terminology changes for every scheme. But think of flow as your own side of the line of scrimmage. And crash as the opposing side of the line of scrimmage. A run blitz should always be on the opposing side of the line of scrimmage.

Originally posted by Parab00n
DA just faced MEM and Central back to back, they sold out on every WR formation against MEM to stop the run and every formation besides 3 WR against Central. Against those formations where they decided to stop they run they held those teams to the below stats.


100 Rushing Attempts
3.34 YPC
16 TFL
334 Yards total

This was against 2 of the top rushing teams in Vet, are we really lobbying to go back to where you can stop rushing with every play in the playbook again?


Maybe it means non counter rushing still needs another buff -- and defenses need a little boost against counters...I don't know. Looking at those 2 games -- they still ran the trips counter 11 times for 8.5 yards per carry -- and the weak I counter strong for 2 times for 11 per...

Do we want people going old school queen city counter spam as much as possible again?

Originally posted by TxSteve
Yes - a blitzing outside linebacker should not (unless he had some kind of super high blitz awareness in my opinion) jump ship and be stopping a dive. That should be a rare, rare case - not an automatic.

Look at just this one play posted earlier (first I looked at of the 3)
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/215414/1937044

LOLB is supposed to be outside blitzing on the OLB blitz. He doesn't even make it to the line of scrimmage before he cuts across directly along the line of scrimmage. at 21 ticks the HB has not changed directions. It isn't until tick 28 that the LOLB finally makes a change of direction...but he turns the wrong way (toward his own secondary). Tick 35.5 until the LOLB is once again facing the ball carrier. AT 35.5 there is not a single defender on the strong side of the field.

There is no contain...and the flock of seagulls chasing the ball all bunch of and trip over each other - just like the old GL roll out / GL sweep days.

So you want the Blitzer to notice the ball has been pitched slower but then you want him to be able to tell the HB has changed directions faster? So we want to change the code so the defender reacts perfectly to a counter run? The stupid spin 270 degrees thing has and alwasys will be broke against all type of plays, I've posted about it for Man Defenders and Zone defenders multiple times in the past 13 seasons. From what I can tell GLB2 has no "intelligent" sim where players spin in the correct direction of the play, for whatever reason it seems to be hard coded that they spin in the same direction no matter if its a longer path.

Originally posted by TxSteve

Maybe it means non counter rushing still needs another buff -- and defenses need a little boost against counters...I don't know. Looking at those 2 games -- they still ran the trips counter 11 times for 8.5 yards per carry -- and the weak I counter strong for 2 times for 11 per...

Do we want people going old school queen city counter spam as much as possible again?

Yes, when I sold out to stop the pass against Central with pass blitzes they were very successful with that Trips counter. I was ok with that, they had run that play much less than they passed out of the 3 WR set. Against the Outside Rush defense plays MEM managed a whopping 22 yards on 7 carries.

no - I want him to follow the lined path that the play says he is going to run --- past the line of scrimmage and into the backfield if he gets past the blocker.

Then at some point - he will begin to roll for blitz awareness checks.

That shouldn't be a change of code. On any other play -- the blitzing line backer follows the path as set forth by the straight line on the play chart (to the best of my recollection).

So - do I think that an outside blitzing linebacker should have a good shot to stop a counter for a loss (unless he is picked up by a FB or blocked by a lineman)? Yes I do. It is my opinion that sort of blitz should be what shuts down a counter...and that a counter should be better against some kind of man D.

Back when queen city was exploiting the counters - I was successful stopping them - but it was almost always my DE with high blitz awareness (70ish) (and decent break block / sprinting / etc).

Originally posted by TxSteve
no - I want him to follow the lined path that the play says he is going to run --- past the line of scrimmage and into the backfield if he gets past the blocker.

Then at some point - he will begin to roll for blitz awareness checks.

That shouldn't be a change of code. On any other play -- the blitzing line backer follows the path as set forth by the straight line on the play chart (to the best of my recollection).

So - do I think that an outside blitzing linebacker should have a good shot to stop a counter for a loss (unless he is picked up by a FB or blocked by a lineman)? Yes I do. It is my opinion that sort of blitz should be what shuts down a counter...and that a counter should be better against some kind of man D.

Back when queen city was exploiting the counters - I was successful stopping them - but it was almost always my DE with high blitz awareness (70ish) (and decent break block / sprinting / etc).


Do you want that LB to run past the HB because he is on his blitz path when its a pitch to his side? Do you want him to ignore the fact that its a screen pass because he is on a blitz path? Do you want him to ignore chasing a RB up the middle of the field because he is on a blitz path?

Originally posted by Parab00n
Yes, when I sold out to stop the pass against Central with pass blitzes they were very successful with that Trips counter. I was ok with that, they had run that play much less than they passed out of the 3 WR set. Against the Outside Rush defense plays MEM managed a whopping 22 yards on 7 carries.

I understand - and I think most of us would agree that Zone is particularly strong against outside runs.


Here is what I'm trying to say: next season we are going to see a resurgence of the counter heavy, queen city offense. Why? because it is picking up a ton of yards against MOST defenses. You are going to see it run particularly heavily against new-ish owners who don't know any better.

Now - it could be that next season we see a bunch of passing teams all running the same 6 passing plays...and we see a bunch of running plays all spamming the same 5 counters....and maybe that could be the impetus for some major change in the game...which would be good. I'd rather just head those things off without spending another season of spam.

Originally posted by Parab00n

Do you want that LB to run past the HB because he is on his blitz path when its a pitch to his side? Do you want him to ignore the fact that its a screen pass because he is on a blitz path? Do you want him to ignore chasing a RB up the middle of the field because he is on a blitz path?

if he misses his blitz awareness roll - yes (to all)