Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Cuivienen

I'm not sure I have a good idea on how to get around those obstacles. Perhaps the only way to really beat a spam defense is to scout it beforehand and select plays to beat it? Perhaps not.


The thing is, you want (and I agree, though my means of doing it would be a little different) to allow defenses to react to unexpected offensive play spam. And again, I very much agree with that.

But offenses should also be able to react to even unexpected defensive play spam. I think a defensive play should be able to be run more often than an offensive play before that kicks in, but play spam on either side of the ball should be heavily penalized.

And in fact, for balance it's kind of necessary-- because against ZEB spam, there are a limited number of plays that work well against ZEB, though those tend to work very well. So even if you anticipate ZEB spam, when doing offense you go heavy on those plays. But because some will get overused, there's a penalty. That overuse should generate a penalty, but only if the ZEB spammer also gets a penalty for spamming ZEB.

The two penalties offset! Repeat..Second Down!

Originally posted by Nyria
The thing is, you want (and I agree, though my means of doing it would be a little different) to allow defenses to react to unexpected offensive play spam. And again, I very much agree with that.

But offenses should also be able to react to even unexpected defensive play spam. I think a defensive play should be able to be run more often than an offensive play before that kicks in, but play spam on either side of the ball should be heavily penalized.

And in fact, for balance it's kind of necessary-- because against ZEB spam, there are a limited number of plays that work well against ZEB, though those tend to work very well. So even if you anticipate ZEB spam, when doing offense you go heavy on those plays. But because some will get overused, there's a penalty. That overuse should generate a penalty, but only if the ZEB spammer also gets a penalty for spamming ZEB.

For one, defensive plays are limited due to the way it is set up. You really only get one choice per situation so why not call the play that you think has the best chance of working?

For two, a good offensive play will beat a bad defensive play almost every time. A couple games ago for example I played the pass against the 3WR set. It seemed like a good idea, but I was mistaken. They spammed a strong pitch to counter my weak blitz. It actually got stronger as my defense's moral spiraled.

I think the real issue is how incredibly OP ZEB is in rookie and sophomore.

Rookie

3.56 yards per carry, only that high due to a few big plays
1.96 YPA/6.17 YPC

But what is a DC to do? Call some lesser play just to be a swell guy?

1. CIT scaled, easier to catch for short, harder for long

2. Fix Chase Down

3. Punting has way too many Touch Backs, need more accuracy.

4. Fix kicking, also bring back the distance like in NFL

5. End of Half and End of Game logic needs fixed or give us options for it.

6. Signature Abilities given out more toward beginning of career instead of spread out and late career.

7. Cheaper Career and AP Boosts.

8. Take Shirt/Skins game high lights out of Top Plays This Week

Originally posted by _OSIRIS_

But what is a DC to do? Call some lesser play just to be a swell guy?


Absolutely not. I don't fault anyone for spamming plays given that there's no penalty for doing it.

What I want is for both OC's and DC's to have to call a greater variety of plays because the game mechanics will punish them if they don't.

DCs are extremely limited by the way tactics are set up. They really have no choice but to call one play over and over. The idea of defensive spamming is absurd.

Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
DCs are extremely limited by the way tactics are set up. They really have no choice but to call one play over and over. The idea of defensive spamming is absurd.

No choice? No, it just is smart if you can figure out what the offense will do.

I do both offense and defense in coaching. My defenses very rarely call the same play over and over because I choose to hedge my bets and not allow one play to beat me. I'm not saying I'm all that good yet, but don't say there's no choice, because it's easy to avoid.

Heck, let's say there'd be a big penalty if you called ZEB over and over and you wanted to avoid it. Put a Cover 1 Man Under into every playbook you have a ZEB. Both Short Run/Pass plays, so they'll be called under the same circumstances except for blitz, so you set your blitz percentage to 50%. Suddenly you have two plays each called 50% of the time.

Then throw in Medium Pass plays for things like 3rd and long, and omg, you're calling several plays.

I don't like the defensive interface either, but it's a choice to spam a play, either offensively or defensively. It can be the best choice, but it is a choice. The point is to make it so it never is the best choice.

Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
DCs are extremely limited by the way tactics are set up. They really have no choice but to call one play over and over. The idea of defensive spamming is absurd.

Common misconception about process, but not result.

The Tactics Matrix is very, very good. I'd like a wrinkle added here and there, but the Matrix is very powerful.

The problem is the Playbook. There aren't enough options given the power of the Tactics Matrix. I know there's 400+ plays, but that's not the point. It's the mix of plays and how they are categorized.

Tournaments

More loldrake

1. More offense plays.
2. More defense plays.
3. Profit.


All the other shit in this thread is boring.

Originally posted by Nyria
My defenses very rarely call the same play over and over because I choose to hedge my bets and not allow one play to beat me. I'm not saying I'm all that good yet, but don't say there's no choice, because it's easy to avoid.



Which team do you DC for?

Originally posted by Cuivienen
I don't think you know what a wish list is.

I can wish for $10M to fall into my lap today but its NGTH. If I was delusional enough to believe it would happen, I would hope someone would set me straight so I could adjust my expectations.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
BTW, thinking about this a bit more, if you wanted to add it to the sim and allow offense to have it too, you would have to rethink how it works on that side of the ball.

The way the sim works, offense dictates play. To simplify, they pick their play based on down and distance. Then defense picks their play based on the formation the offense trots out, among other things.

So it is relatively easy/simple to allow the defense to react to offense spam, because they already react to the offense. The offense does not however.

Additionally, theoretically the defense could spam play A, and the best counter to that is play 1. But when you trot out play 1, defensive tactics could dictate that play B is run, and you're not auto exploiting the play A spam at all.

I'm not sure I have a good idea on how to get around those obstacles. Perhaps the only way to really beat a spam defense is to scout it beforehand and select plays to beat it? Perhaps not.

You would need toggles on both for OCs and DCs to control whether they what an auto adjust to control their tactics or not, as it might just end up messing up a very nuanced strategy if it is always on.

Originally posted by Nyria
And in fact, for balance it's kind of necessary-- because against ZEB spam, there are a limited number of plays that work well against ZEB, though those tend to work very well. So even if you anticipate ZEB spam, when doing offense you go heavy on those plays. But because some will get overused, there's a penalty. That overuse should generate a penalty, but only if the ZEB spammer also gets a penalty for spamming ZEB.

Nyria brought up the issue. A limited number of plays work well against certain plays, especially in rookie. Offenses are forced to spam the plays that work in order to avoid being massacred. Adding penalties for spam to both teams will essentially offset each other which does nothing to fix the problem.

As an example, look at Super Bowl Shuffle. They've run ZEB for 49% of their defensive plays for the entire season. Against 2 WR sets they've run it 60% of the time. Against 3 WR sets they're approaching 70%. Their LBs have 101.5, 53.5, 36.5, and 16.5 sacks on the season. You can't blame bhall for running the defense he runs, but its clearly not in the best interest of the game to see such a one-dimensional set of tactics be successful.

In that vein.....why not just explain the diversity bonus....and adjust it until it is a workable deterrent to spam playbooks? why not introduce (and explain in detail) a workable diversity bonus on defense??

Throw in some new plays...or new play variations - and Bort & Co will see a LOT of flex spent this offseason as people evaluate in scrims.

Originally posted by Nyria
No choice? No, it just is smart if you can figure out what the offense will do.

I do both offense and defense in coaching. My defenses very rarely call the same play over and over because I choose to hedge my bets and not allow one play to beat me. I'm not saying I'm all that good yet, but don't say there's no choice, because it's easy to avoid.

Heck, let's say there'd be a big penalty if you called ZEB over and over and you wanted to avoid it. Put a Cover 1 Man Under into every playbook you have a ZEB. Both Short Run/Pass plays, so they'll be called under the same circumstances except for blitz, so you set your blitz percentage to 50%. Suddenly you have two plays each called 50% of the time.

Then throw in Medium Pass plays for things like 3rd and long, and omg, you're calling several plays.

I don't like the defensive interface either, but it's a choice to spam a play, either offensively or defensively. It can be the best choice, but it is a choice. The point is to make it so it never is the best choice.

The thing is the offense doesn't call the same thing out of every WR set. You can set one defensive set up with 3-5 plays but you will be hard pressed to find the same type of plays to fit across the board. Offense dictates what defensive plays I call.

Maybe a team runs inside in short yardage situation out of the 2WR set and throws in some passes and pitches out of the 3WR set.Maybe MO is the way to go on short yardage out of the two WR set, but not the 3 WR set. That eliminates the inside run defense from my 3WR playbook. If an offense always passes in and long situations I will probably call a blitz every time. I could call a medium play for and longs just for the sake of calling a medium play, or not blitz out of charity, but I want to win.

I want to blitz on 3rd and long. I want the QB to get rid of the ball before the WRs have reached the first down marker. It would be like forcing an offense to call run plays on 3rd and long. Offense dictates what defensive plays I call.

ZEB seems to be killing rookie ball but changing things across the board is not the way to go.