Warrior General Games

Originally posted by jfbueno
but at some point the D's get morale death spiraled and the game gets out of hand quickly.

To be fair, this is because of my player builds (and some poor choice defensive builds that can't counter/stand strong against mine)

like I'm not shy to tell you that o-line builds with ~90 run block tech and ~100 run block power with gold beat down and pancake chef are going to demoralize you over time. That's no secret but it has nothing to do with the play choice besides the OC choosing a play with time for the o-line to win the rolls they need to.

Teams that eat the morale spirals are those that a) get pancaked and b) miss tackles. It's not directly a function of the counter design.

Originally posted by jfbueno
Well MEM was really the only team able to contain QC for the entire game this season when they ran counters and that was just using a bend but don't break type of defense that has it's own inherent flaws. You can shut vet level counters down fairly well for a quarter or two (look at the DD vs QC game) but at some point the D's get morale death spiraled and the game gets out of hand quickly.

not trying to come across like an a-hole...

but can't you avoid the morale death spiral with heart and conditioning...and reduce the # of pancakes with hold ground / balance / break block?

Ok - I'm watching the QC vs DD game now.

Here is a little more than the 1st quarter:
QC on offense:
counter sweep weak vs man DE flats: -3, 19*,

counter sweep strong vs man DE flats: 10, 48TD, -6, 25, 1*, 6, 8TD, 12, -4, -4, -6, 12,

Big I counter left vs 2 man press: 12,

Big I counter left vs 4-4 Man Base: 22, 34td,

DD on offense:
Trips counter strong vs SS blitz: 13,

weak I Counter sweep strong vs middle overload: 24, 21, 7TD, 26*, 8td, 80td,

Big I counter left vs 4-3 2 man under: 14*

Strong I counter sweep strong vs middle overload: 15, 14, -5, 12,

Weak I counter sweep weak vs middle overload: -3,

Weak I counter sweep weak vs 3 deep man up: 11*, 0, -1,

*tackle missed in backfield


A few things that stand out most to me:

- I think we've known for awhile that DE flats don't work very well -- the DE gets sucked into the blocker

- I know you're not arguing that "middle overload" should have stopped all of these counters....

Is there enough here for me to say "counters need to be nerfed?" I don't think so - clearly running middle overload sucks against it...you already pointed out (and I demonstrated in my game) that man isn't good against it.

Certainly DE Flats could be improved

Sure - maybe a tweak or two could be made to defensive AI to keep the LB's from crashing as much into the line (maybe even a single step would make a difference), but I'm not convinced it is overpowered against every defensive play call

Originally posted by InRomoWeTrust
like I'm not shy to tell you that o-line builds with ~90 run block tech and ~100 run block power with gold beat down and pancake chef are going to demoralize you over time. That's no secret but it has nothing to do with the play choice besides the OC choosing a play with time for the o-line to win the rolls they need to.

Teams that eat the morale spirals are those that a) get pancaked and b) miss tackles. It's not directly a function of the counter design.

Romo - did you expect middle overload to contain the counter there...or did you not expect that many counters?

Originally posted by TxSteve
Romo - did you expect middle overload to contain the counter there...or did you not expect that many counters?

I didn't gameplan (or expect the counters). That's been my stock defense.

Thanks - I figured that (or you were just screwing around).

Originally posted by pottsman
Would that really be any different? No other formations use 2 FBs.

1) You give Diamond its own DC;
2) You put the second FB on the main DC.

Difference?

In #2, you the only position that you get to manipulate for the diamond formation is the second FB.

In #1 you put all run blocking o-line on the diamond formation, put in a RQB, put in BFBs, but then you pass as normal out of all of the other formations.

There is a very good reason that we went away from formation specific depth charts.

HBurg Bulldogs open for scrims (outside of league)

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/team/373

major points for this new change... woo!

"Ladder games will now prioritize previously unplayed teams"

Originally posted by Time Trial
1) You give Diamond its own DC;
2) You put the second FB on the main DC.

Difference?

In #2, you the only position that you get to manipulate for the diamond formation is the second FB.

In #1 you put all run blocking o-line on the diamond formation, put in a RQB, put in BFBs, but then you pass as normal out of all of the other formations.

There is a very good reason that we went away from formation specific depth charts.

That being said, blocking WRs are such a game breaking thing in this game. It is hard enough to get the CB to follow the WR and make a play on the ball in this game without requiring them to also be able to deal with WRs that are built to block instead of catch the ball. When they run a rollout play and the WRs are pancaking your CBs ten yards down the field...

Of course, you can trick your LBers into playing man coverage over the WRs, and if you have enough run blocking LBers, that might be your answer. Problem is, without tagging, the O can simply switch which side the blocking WRs are playing on each game and choose to run behind them every single game and the DC has a 50% chance of getting it totally wrong.

Pure running teams are a garbage creation of an inflexible D system. Even if you know that the team is going to run outside on you, you are better off running a D that has 0 outside blockers so that your CBs aren't getting caked every play and so that you can try and overload the blockers inside and outside before the QB/HB can get out of the pocket.

Originally posted by jfbueno
Well MEM was really the only team able to contain QC for the entire game this season when they ran counters and that was just using a bend but don't break type of defense that has it's own inherent flaws. You can shut vet level counters down fairly well for a quarter or two (look at the DD vs QC game) but at some point the D's get morale death spiraled and the game gets out of hand quickly.

tbf the only reason romo is probably scoring upwards of 80+ on Rusty constantly is because i haven't watched a sim all last season and im still running the same shitty defense that has been abused by counters forever.

Originally posted by Time Trial
1) You give Diamond its own DC;
2) You put the second FB on the main DC.

Difference?

In #2, you the only position that you get to manipulate for the diamond formation is the second FB.

In #1 you put all run blocking o-line on the diamond formation, put in a RQB, put in BFBs, but then you pass as normal out of all of the other formations.

There is a very good reason that we went away from formation specific depth charts.

I would assume this formation gets its own separate defense so it really doesn't matter.

unless you are running it off of 2 WR which seems silly to me.

Originally posted by Time Trial
That being said, blocking WRs are such a game breaking thing in this game. It is hard enough to get the CB to follow the WR and make a play on the ball in this game without requiring them to also be able to deal with WRs that are built to block instead of catch the ball. When they run a rollout play and the WRs are pancaking your CBs ten yards down the field...

put your good break run block/tackling CBs on the side the opposing teams run typically to. I typically roll with 4 or 5 CBs with at least 2 of them that are really good at breaking WR run blocks, and use them more in games against running teams... kind of a pain to do, but it noticeably helps

Originally posted by bhall43
I would assume this formation gets its own separate defense so it really doesn't matter.

It really does still matter, because it is another formation where you can go RQB only if you wanted. I haven't looked, but I assume that there are or will be passing plays out of this formation?

What if 50% of the games someone runs RQB out of diamond and 50% of the games they throw the ball? Without tagging, the DC is just guessing, which was the whole reason we didn't give people formation specific depth charts after the test server.