Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Corndog
I guess an artificial boost to deflection ability while in zone coverage would "fix" it in that when receivers are actually covered, it's a lot more effective than when they are covered by a man defender.

From my completely non-scientific or based on any facts or research opinion. If you turn down how 'tight' or how well the cover, the db's play in man while making in traffic catches hard (and less frequent because of less perfect coverage). Then make interior pass rush stronger. And lastly have zone D flow to the ball better and work as a unit more. The Pass game would be much better imo. Of course saying this and then being able to code it is completely something else. And I only know python

Oh and also if there were more viable pass play options and the op ones were toned down a littleee bit. Zone D would be more of an viable option. Specially if shorter passing plays would start working better.

Well, I mean, until there's a reason to not run man coverage, people will continue running man coverage. It's simple, and it works reliably.

How do you make it not as reliable while not destroying any semblance of balance? If you make it so man defenders lose coverage more frequently, then reception rates are going to be 80%+. Making receivers less likely to catch while wide open will anger some people because there's already people disgruntled about receivers missing a catch while open. Maybe make QBs less accurate?

I mean, I'm open to suggestions, but vague things like "make the defense work as a team" is nebulous and not really helpful at all.

Originally posted by Corndog
Well, I mean, until there's a reason to not run man coverage, people will continue running man coverage. It's simple, and it works reliably.

How do you make it not as reliable while not destroying any semblance of balance? If you make it so man defenders lose coverage more frequently, then reception rates are going to be 80%+. Making receivers less likely to catch while wide open will anger some people because there's already people disgruntled about receivers missing a catch while open. Maybe make QBs less accurate?

I mean, I'm open to suggestions, but vague things like "make the defense work as a team" is nebulous and not really helpful at all.

More Pressure from the D-line, specifically dt's. Pressure will make the qb throw more inaccurate and make him dump it off. The "make the defense work as a team" part..I might make a diagram or two tomorrow. As to what I mean.

Originally posted by underdog13
More Pressure from the D-line, specifically dt's. Pressure will make the qb throw more inaccurate and make him dump it off. The "make the defense work as a team" part..I might make a diagram or two tomorrow. As to what I mean.

That doesn't improve Zone, though. It improves defense, but not zones.

Honestly the best way is to make pressure more reliable from the front 4. Not anything ridiculous but enough to make qbs feel hurried. Its really hard to generate the pressure needed to rattle the qb. One of the biggest things in my opinion is that catching in traffic is too easy for speed receivers and not good enough for possession guys. My suggestion is to makes it so that you actually have to have significant hands and CIT levels to catch the ball with a man who has high deflection/interception skills on you. You can make open catches easier but make in traffic catches harder at lower cit and hands levels so that way people actually have to build possession guys to play the middle of the field. Though one tweak is needed for pass defense though, safety logic needs to improve. The safety should always be over the top when put into deep coverage.

A lot of problems also stem from cbs having low speed. Might need to lower costs or something because CBS LBS and Safeties have too much to cover skill wise and I think thats the biggest root of the problem. As a Defense you cant just build a pure shut down corner because he wont have the speed or physical traits to keep up with wrs and he also wont be able to cover the run at all. Best way to sum it up is that the Defense has to build too specialized to be decent at something and it then leaves them open to getting destroyed by their deficiencies. Im not saying they should be able to do it all but I shouldnt feel like I have to neglet run stopping skills on my cb to make sure he can handle both speed and possession recievers

A good in game example is Hawaii, players a tier above them have issues stopping them. Storm is averaging a ridiculous 7.5 yards a carry in ladder games this season, it's because it's viable for an offense to just build to straight run and not viable for a defense to do so. Honestly you have to sell out pretty hard to run stopping to stop Hawaii and that means that your defense won't be able to handle the pass at all. Basically the sim rewards the offense for exteme builds but punishes defenses for the same thing.

I don't think any pro teams would say that they've had trouble stopping us.

We've scored over 20 in just four games out of twelve, and all but 1 were losing efforts.

I disagree, our extreme defensive builds are doing just what they're supposed to, including stopping the run.

Originally posted by o The Boss x
I don't think any pro teams would say that they've had trouble stopping us.

We've scored over 20 in just four games out of twelve, and all but 1 were losing efforts.

I disagree, our extreme defensive builds are doing just what they're supposed to, including stopping the run.

That 7.5 yards a carry shows that they are having issues, getting lucky on 3rd downs is not evidence that teams can stop you. Any back putting up storms numbers vs mostly pro teams should be a sign of concern.

Originally posted by Corndog
Cover 2 Sink is an oddly overused zone play by teams trying to run zone.

CB1 and CB2 basically take themselves out of the play besides a few niche routes, and you're left with 4 pass rushers and 5 people in zones.

Originally posted by Corndog
Zone does work, you just have to look at the meta and what teams are doing and call plays that counter those.

Cover 2 gets destroyed by corner routes which are still popular routes because of last season. "Flat" zones also tend to suck outside of a few niche purposes. Playing safe with more guys over the top and forcing teams to make a bunch of short passes rather than a few big passes also seems to be generally more effective than just having everyone in underneath zones.

You also can't look at it entirely from a stopping the pass standpoint. Zone coverage reacts to rushing plays a lot differently than man plays.

For me, these things are the main reason zone is weaker than man at the moment. Too many of the plays have defenders assigned to these undesirable niche-usefulness zones, so trying to find plays to appropriately counter what opponents are doing is much more difficult. Flat zones can be useful against outside runs, and probably screens (but nobody uses screens in our tier), but in our base formation, 3-4, better than 50% of the plays have defenders in assigned to both flats. The majority of those have the Corners in the flats. This is the main reason Cover 2 Sink is more often used, because at least the corners are dropping back on the play.

Trying to get all your guys assigned to play coverage to actually cover someone for the majority of a play is pretty tough. I'm fine with guys getting crossed up when multiple receivers come through their zone, but defenders consistently letting a guy move down-field beyond their zone when there are no more receivers on the way is a pretty serious handicap for zone as compared to man.

I'm not sure I can comment regarding run defense comparison, the only teams we faced with a significant running game are teams that run 100% of the time. I honestly doubt there is much difference between zone and man run defense, just pick decent counter plays. There are a couple offense formations that are very strong against zone that probably are not as strong against man, though.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
I think the major thing is someone needs to stick with it through vet so we can see end game zone defense.

I am definitely sticking with it through vet.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
For all we know zone maybe something that doesn't manifest till your about done with builds or maybe even till someone finds the build that turns zone into an unstoppable juggernaut.

This is what I am going for. A new type of zone/scheme.

I think everyone should be playing zone...


Especially teams I'm playing against.

Originally posted by Galithor
How, exactly, would you salvage the coverage from what I linked in the OP?

The safety's build isn't open. What is his zone awareness and cov tech? I see he is a speed guy but that's all I can tell.

Originally posted by Sardonik00
Xavori...is that you?

I assure you....I am not Xavori.

Originally posted by Corndog
Cover 2 Sink is an oddly overused zone play by teams trying to run zone.

CB1 and CB2 basically take themselves out of the play besides a few niche routes, and you're left with 4 pass rushers and 5 people in zones.

Most people run cover 2 sink because CBs playing flat zones are terrible. In flat zones, the CB will take the HB coming out of the back field and let a wide open WR run right by them and he will be open between the safety and CB...that's if the safety even plays his position properly. I would rather let the CB play back and give the HB a catch then let the WR catch the ball behind the CB.