Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TxSteve
Clearly we don't know the code. This thread is simply an attempt to get Corndog to take a look at it -- in light of the code -- and perhaps a major pancake nerf was not intended...but was simply a unforeseen consequence of the 4 or 5 other changes that were all made at the same time.

THIS!

Corndog should have started with just the AI tweak. Make the LB's, etc. run down the line instead of into it. Improve the pathing on DB's and others so they make a greater effort to avoid lead blockers based on their Pursuit.

Oh, and make those changes on an offday so people have time to run scrims and adjust.

Then wait a couple games to see if things have gotten closer to the goal the devs have for outside running success.

If it wasn't there, then add the increased difficulty in holding open field blocks (but at a level where it doesn't become near impossible for sophomores and rookies). See what happens there.

I suspect at that point, you'd start to see the reduction in big 50+ yard TD runs on QB Rollout and HB Sweep that you'd want, without the complete wreckage that most run-first offenses were left it.

And then you could start trying to figure out why passing has become 500+ yard games being the norm...

Originally posted by bhall43
Your points are all over the place. I can't keep track of what you are ever arguing. Being an all run team doesn't make sense realistically and it doesn't make sense logically. If a guy can't pass you have to completely overpower the defense. Especially if you are as cheesy as most of the teams in from rookie to seasoned. Conversely if your an all pass team you still have to pick your battles on every play.


Look at it smaller...I think the issue comes down to a simple 1 vs 1 blocking interaction...and the result of it.

Originally posted by Rom_Fox
this is the most discouraging aspect

yup

Pancake nerf is a good thing.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Look at it smaller...I think the issue comes down to a simple 1 vs 1 blocking interaction...and the result of it.



It really doesn't. Because most of the rushing teams don't have much variation at all. If it wasn't for some of the epic hoops DC tactics make a guy go through guys who don't ever pass would almost never score against a decent team.

Originally posted by bhall43
Conversely if your an all pass team you still have to pick your battles on every play.

That's completely wrong, and I suspect you know it.

QB's get an emergency dump off roll. With the right build, the QB is way more important for sack avoidance than the entire o-line.

The new coverage system did what it was supposed to against short passing being "I win" for receivers since the DB's would never be in position, but it created a whole new "I win" when WR's blow past the DB's during their turn. Worse, that's something that quite a few DB's aren't going to be able to fix since their original stats and traits weren't picked with the need for an eventual 80+ in Footwork just to stay within 5 yards of their WR.

There is no pick your battles every play. There is, and has been since season 2 at least (I can't speak on anything in season one), just a handful of plays you need to run with a pretty obvious build at QB and tada! 500+ yard passing games are yours EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

I mean, I think it took the Loungers, 6...maybe 7 games to figure out how to do that with our original team.

Originally posted by Xavori
That's completely wrong, and I suspect you know it.

QB's get an emergency dump off roll. With the right build, the QB is way more important for sack avoidance than the entire o-line.

The new coverage system did what it was supposed to against short passing being "I win" for receivers since the DB's would never be in position, but it created a whole new "I win" when WR's blow past the DB's during their turn. Worse, that's something that quite a few DB's aren't going to be able to fix since their original stats and traits weren't picked with the need for an eventual 80+ in Footwork just to stay within 5 yards of their WR.

There is no pick your battles every play. There is, and has been since season 2 at least (I can't speak on anything in season one), just a handful of plays you need to run with a pretty obvious build at QB and tada! 500+ yard passing games are yours EVERY. SINGLE. GAME.

I mean, I think it took the Loungers, 6...maybe 7 games to figure out how to do that with our original team.



When I say pick your battles I mean you are covering 5 guys. You run teams are so simple that if the d tactics were just a little bit more fleshed out you would be pinned to a T.

Originally posted by bhall43
It really doesn't. Because most of the rushing teams don't have much variation at all. If it wasn't for some of the epic hoops DC tactics make a guy go through guys who don't ever pass would almost never score against a decent team.

It still is and still was much easier to stop a running team than a passing team. The right blitz actually stops runs, it doesn't stop passes

Originally posted by o The Boss x
It still is and still was much easier to stop a running team than a passing team. The right blitz actually stops runs, it doesn't stop passes

ldo

Originally posted by bhall43
When I say pick your battles I mean you are covering 5 guys. You run teams are so simple that if the d tactics were just a little bit more fleshed out you would be pinned to a T.

Except Yorick wasn't before the nerf.

Before the nerf, I ran sweeps both strong and weak, offtackle strong and weak, and variety of inside plays from 2,3,4, and sometimes even 5 WR's.

I had more plays that would get called regularly than most passing teams. I never put up as much yardage as passing teams did on a regular basis.

And yet, I, and teams like mine, are what got nerfed.

Originally posted by Xavori
Except Yorick wasn't before the nerf.

Before the nerf, I ran sweeps both strong and weak, offtackle strong and weak, and variety of inside plays from 2,3,4, and sometimes even 5 WR's.

I had more plays that would get called regularly than most passing teams. I never put up as much yardage as passing teams did on a regular basis.

And yet, I, and teams like mine, are what got nerfed.

You might think you were pretty all over the place, but you really weren't.

First, you should be looking at pancakes per rushing play, not pancakes per game. For example, Yorick ran 72 plays in game 1 vs Lincoln, but only 54 plays in game 2, so the drop isn't quite as bad as the raw pancake numbers.

Second, you aren't really accounting for the feedback effect. Successful rushing leads to morale and energy drops on the defense, which in turn increases pancakes, which increases the morale drop...eventually you reach a tipping point. Looking again at Yorick vs Lincoln, this time at DE Randy Gregory, since he was pancaked 10 times in game 1 and 1 time in game 2. In game one he does fine until Yorick pancakes him on an 80-yard TD run. His morale tanks and never recovers and he gets pushed on his butt repeatedly after that. Game 2, no long TD runs until the 4th Q, no morale spiral starts, pancakes don't come nearly as heavily.

I think it's quite possible the morale spiral effect of multiple long TD runs was leading to the high pancake numbers rather than the other way around.

Originally posted by bhall43
You might think you were pretty all over the place, but you really weren't.

My HB feels much differently right now.

Back in the day people were posting those lists of most called plays, etc. It'd be interesting to see them now. Anybody?

You're right - pancakes per rushing play would be better -- but still doesn't include special teams which can be big.

Plus beyond run tech / run power / hold ground / break block you have to look at footwork / balance / etc.

Too much for us to know!

But the change has been HUGE in my experience...and the change hasn't stopped the GL QB rollout garbage...so what was the stinking point of it?

I would agree that outside runs needed a slight tweak toward the less powerful -- but this change has been huge and really didn't even do what it was apparently supposed to do!