User Pass
Home Sign Up Contact Log In
Forum > Game Changes Discussion > Announced Changes > Revision of Defensive Play Creator - Limiting Player Movement
Page:
 
neoliminal
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by tragula
More correctly, there are 3 basic alignments per O player on the LOS (head up, inside shoulder outside shoulder). With a TE that is 6*3 = 18. Now you populate that with 4 DL you have 3060 possible front 4. Then you need to add the possible LBs and DEs that are split wide.

No human player needs to learn how to handle this multiplicity by memorizing all possibilities. It is not too complicated to reduce the problem to ~4-6 basic alignments for each front (3-4, 4-3, 5-2, ...). The way GLB does it right now is flawed. I think it can be corrected, if they are willing to have a rethink and redo instead of just patching on the 2.5 years old code.


Overload blitzes should not be picked up.
- The O should have the tools to punish them.
- The O should have a way to choose blocking scheme that will nullify an overload blitz (opening a weakness somewhere else on the line).
- But when the D dials the right overload, and the O is surprised it needs to be a sack. It is bad news knowing that this will not be part of the future of the game.





There are still only 7 holes, only 7 ways to get past a player. (Yeah, I guess you could count the players too if you wanted to run over top of them after a reverse pancake... but you don't *plan* for that in assigning blockers.)

You have 7 holes. Period.
You have X number of blitzers fitting into those holes (and multiple through one hole).
By locating which blockers are closest (and available) to that hole, you can assign your bockers.

I don't care that there are literally 1000s of places a blitzer trying to get through the 3 hole can start from on the field's XY positions. They still have a path through the hole and that path can be intercepted by a blocker. That's how you assign blockers. It's not that hard.
 
TJ Spikes
offline
Link
 
Exploit by definition is a repeated play that works because of a loophole in the AI. An exploit is only an exploit because the offense doesn't adjust.

If the offense had a way to react, like bringing a blocker in motion, or having the HB line up to the left of the QB (3W and SG), or maybe use an unbalanced o-line when the defense tries to overload, then the defense wouldn't run the same exact blitz 100 times in a row.

If changing the existing AI is too hard, then add in new features.
Edited by TJ Spikes on Oct 25, 2010 16:20:13
 
Rage Kinard
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by neoliminal
There are still only 7 holes, only 7 ways to get past a player. (Yeah, I guess you could count the players too if you wanted to run over top of them after a reverse pancake... but you don't *plan* for that in assigning blockers.)

You have 7 holes. Period.
You have X number of blitzers fitting into those holes (and multiple through one hole).
By locating which blockers are closest (and available) to that hole, you can assign your bockers.



But you use some defenders to get a different defender to the QB. You don't have to design a blitz so that you try and get 6 defenders to the QB. You design a blitz so that 1 player is not blocked. Put 2 players head up on 2 OL that are next to each other and blitz through the gap between them.

For instance, I'll blitz a FS at the C, so that the OL can not adjust and account for a LB blitzing through the B gap or outside the OT. I know that the FS has no chance to get to the QB, but he is just as much an integral part of the blitz as the LB who gets the sack.
Edited by Rage Kinard on Oct 25, 2010 16:36:05
 
supgreg
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by Rage Kinard
But you use some defenders to get a different defender to the QB. You don't have to design a blitz so that you try and get 6 defenders to the QB. You design a blitz so that 1 player is not blocked. Put 2 players head up on 2 OL that are next to each other and blitz through the gap between them.

For instance, I'll blitz a FS at the C, so that the OL can not adjust and account for a LB blitzing through the B gap or outside the OT. I know that the FS has no chance to get to the QB, but he is just as much an integral part of the blitz as the LB who gets the sack.


Yes, trying to get a free player going @ the QB the goal of any blitz, NFL or GLB. The problem is the blocking code. 7 sacks in a game in the NFL is a ton, but it's normal in GLB.

Fix the blocking concept, don't take away from the defense.
 
tragula
title
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by neoliminal
There are still only 7 holes, only 7 ways to get past a player. (Yeah, I guess you could count the players too if you wanted to run over top of them after a reverse pancake... but you don't *plan* for that in assigning blockers.)

You have 7 holes. Period.
You have X number of blitzers fitting into those holes (and multiple through one hole).
By locating which blockers are closest (and available) to that hole, you can assign your bockers.

I don't care that there are literally 1000s of places a blitzer trying to get through the 3 hole can start from on the field's XY positions. They still have a path through the hole and that path can be intercepted by a blocker. That's how you assign blockers. It's not that hard.


Doesn't matter how you count it, it is not something you can handle by looking at each front separately.

Even when you look at 4 defenders and 7 holes you have 35 different pass rush scenarios. To that you need to add possible LBs and DBs blitzing. And to that you need to account for the offense play (is the TE staying to block ? location of backs and are they staying to block ...)

In real life the center (or #18) look before the play starts, and assigns blockers using some pre-determined rules. They also identify potential blitzing players and assign blitz pickup responsibility.

 
Rage Kinard
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by supgreg
Yes, trying to get a free player going @ the QB the goal of any blitz, NFL or GLB. The problem is the blocking code. 7 sacks in a game in the NFL is a ton, but it's normal in GLB.

Fix the blocking concept, don't take away from the defense.


The problem is that IRL, players can adjust in game. They can make judgment calls. They can go to the sideline and adjust how they are going to block a scheme the next time they see it.

In a computer game, every possible blocking assignment has to be coded ahead of time. Adjustments to the blocking rules can not be made in game. Dots can't make judgment calls as to whether or not they should block player A than player B. If player A is 2 yards off the LOS and is 2x faster than player B, they may need to block player A. However in the next game, they should block player B because player A is only 1.3 x faster than player B. Those things are virtually impossible to account for ahead of time.
Edited by Rage Kinard on Oct 25, 2010 17:45:47
 
jdbolick
offline
Link
 
Can we end this charade now? http://goallineblitz.com/game/playoff_bracket.pl?league_id=280&conference_id=0
 
tonylieu
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by Rage Kinard
The problem is that IRL, players can adjust in game. They can make judgment calls. They can go to the sideline and adjust how they are going to block a scheme the next time they see it.

In a computer game, every possible blocking assignment has to be coded ahead of time. Adjustments to the blocking rules can not be made in game. Dots can't make judgment calls as to whether or not they should block player A than player B. If player A is 2 yards off the LOS and is 2x faster than player B, they may need to block player A. However in the next game, they should block player B because player A is only 1.3 x faster than player B. Those things are virtually impossible to account for ahead of time.


Why not? If the QB can make a judgement call as to whether a WR is open or not, an OL should be able to decide as to who has the most threat to the QB in a passing play.
 
Rage Kinard
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by tonylieu
Why not? If the QB can make a judgement call as to whether a WR is open or not, an OL should be able to decide as to who has the most threat to the QB in a passing play.


And how well does the QB decide when a WR is open or how much to lead him in GLB?
 
tonylieu
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by Rage Kinard
And how well does the QB decide when a WR is open or how much to lead him in GLB?


Based on the fact that passing game is the rage now in WL, I say it works very well
 
Bonkaz
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by Rage Kinard
The problem is that IRL, players can adjust in game. They can make judgment calls. They can go to the sideline and adjust how they are going to block a scheme the next time they see it.

In a computer game, every possible blocking assignment has to be coded ahead of time. Adjustments to the blocking rules can not be made in game. Dots can't make judgment calls as to whether or not they should block player A than player B. If player A is 2 yards off the LOS and is 2x faster than player B, they may need to block player A. However in the next game, they should block player B because player A is only 1.3 x faster than player B. Those things are virtually impossible to account for ahead of time.


Quite incorrect.

Players already have code for vision checks. After observing a player move for two ticks, you have enough velocity data to do a conditional.

Better would be to code a simple small neural network for blocker logic, that way it can adapt.

There's even a CPAN module for a fast one in C that plugs into Perl...

http://search.cpan.org/~salva/AI-FANN-0.10/lib/AI/FANN.pm

Best is to let offensive coordinators code the logic themselves.
Edited by Bonkaz on Oct 25, 2010 21:47:54
 
tdot
offline
Link
 
OK I coach H.S. football andI don't understand how a Football game is being designed by ppl who don't understand how to either set up a way for this play to be blocked which should be extremely simple... but I guess it isn't I wouldn't know not a huge computer code person.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1420117&pbp_id=10577300

Why doesn't the OL slide Left??? How in the world do you make a game that profits as much as this does but have an OL that can't Block this??? I have Freshman in H.S. that if seen a team line up like this wouldn't get beat by this scheme especially with a HB in the backfield to help.

have you guys thought about Zone blocking??? this way the OL doeasn't lock into any 1 players and this will allow this to take the guy who enters there zone.
 
wormser1971
no title
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by tdot
OK I coach H.S. football andI don't understand how a Football game is being designed by ppl who don't understand how to either set up a way for this play to be blocked which should be extremely simple... but I guess it isn't I wouldn't know not a huge computer code person.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1420117&pbp_id=10577300

Why doesn't the OL slide Left??? How in the world do you make a game that profits as much as this does but have an OL that can't Block this??? I have Freshman in H.S. that if seen a team line up like this wouldn't get beat by this scheme especially with a HB in the backfield to help.

have you guys thought about Zone blocking??? this way the OL doeasn't lock into any 1 players and this will allow this to take the guy who enters there zone.

Don't worry... the profits are gonna end soon
 
foofighter24
jumpin da snark
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by jdbolick
Can we end this charade now? http://goallineblitz.com/game/playoff_bracket.pl?league_id=280&conference_id=0


No, we need more offense! Average total score is still under 200 in World League.
 
tragula
title
offline
Link
 
Originally posted by tdot
OK I coach H.S. football andI don't understand how a Football game is being designed by ppl who don't understand how to either set up a way for this play to be blocked which should be extremely simple... but I guess it isn't I wouldn't know not a huge computer code person.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1420117&pbp_id=10577300

Why doesn't the OL slide Left??? How in the world do you make a game that profits as much as this does but have an OL that can't Block this??? I have Freshman in H.S. that if seen a team line up like this wouldn't get beat by this scheme especially with a HB in the backfield to help.

have you guys thought about Zone blocking??? this way the OL doeasn't lock into any 1 players and this will allow this to take the guy who enters there zone.


It is zone blocking in pass protection. This is one messed up replay (= a bug), and you will not find too many of those (but they exist if you search). If you read Catch's announcement, then the drive for the change is that they cannot handle those bugs.
 
Page:
 


You are not logged in. Please log in if you want to post a reply.