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Forum > Goal Line Blitz > Knocked Loose Nerfed? (Bort replies, see first post)
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Michael Vick
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Originally posted by steellithium
Originally posted by RobertRJS

i think the problem is he's a WR that should never be running that type of route but that route is fine for other receivers.


I agree. If you are going to run a streak, put a WR that is a speed build. If you are going to run over the middle, better toughen up the WR you are going to use.


If you run a streak route, teams will run the just put their safeties over the top and stop it that way. And then when you try and go across the middle the MLB is usually there to knock it loose as well. The crossing routes over the middle aren't deep enough imo
 
California
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Originally posted by Deathblade
13 inches, impressive.


fyp and thanks

 
23yrwej
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Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by steellithium

There already is a good reason. Defenders need vision/tackling/strength/agility as well. The only reason speed is pumped is to keep up with WR's. It is a stupid cold war, that keeps every position from living up to their potential. Many defenders have already started backing off speed to be able to tackle power backs.


I disagree on the attribute part, but it is like an escalation. My high level LB has almost 115 speed, and still is able to roll with 70 str, 70 tackling, and 64ish vision, which is plenty to stop anything that comes his way.

WRs and TEs need: Speed, Agility, Jumping, Catching, Vision, Carrying, Stamina, and Confidence. Good TE's will have a bit of STR as well.

The defense doesn't REALLY have it so bad.

Speed is always king, just as in real football. Handicapping it on one side of the ball isn't the right answer.


Basically the same except my LB has 70s+ in everything but vision.(vision is at 68) And your LB doesn't need 115 speed, they actually do better in coverage if they are built SORT OF like CBs...like a 115 speed 70 agility LB doesn't cover as well as a 100 speed 85 agility LB and the 100 speed 85 agility does most everything else just as well.
 
steellithium
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Originally posted by ATL_DirtyBird
If you run a streak route, teams will run the just put their safeties over the top and stop it that way. And then when you try and go across the middle the MLB is usually there to knock it loose as well. The crossing routes over the middle aren't deep enough imo


That is why we need a diversity of builds. Everyone hands teams cookie cutter builds. Even in real football, the WR position isn't one skill set. If you look at every team, they generally have 3 types of receivers.

-Speed: Stretch the field to force safeties out of the box

-Possession: Runs crossing routes, slants, comebacks, and out routes

-Slot: Agile kick returner type receiver, catches short slants and clearing routes, relies on YAC
 
23yrwej
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Originally posted by steellithium
Originally posted by ATL_DirtyBird

If you run a streak route, teams will run the just put their safeties over the top and stop it that way. And then when you try and go across the middle the MLB is usually there to knock it loose as well. The crossing routes over the middle aren't deep enough imo


That is why we need a diversity of builds. Everyone hands teams cookie cutter builds. Even in real football, the WR position isn't one skill set. If you look at every team, they generally have 3 types of receivers.

-Speed: Stretch the field to force safeties out of the box

-Possession: Runs crossing routes, slants, comebacks, and out routes

-Slot: Agile kick returner type receiver, catches short slants and clearing routes, relies on YAC


Um how much experience do you have with Pro teams?
 
NiborRis
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"Knocked loose" was NOT introduced all at once at a mystery time mid-season a couple seasons back. BUT, some things around it were changed that caused it to increase in frequency right in the same season that they added "knocked loose" to the pbp text.
If you want proof, go back and look at old games pre "knocked loose" text and add up the catches by your WRs and the completions by the QBs - they often don't match, and that's because of a stat bug that caused the QB to still get a completion recorded when the ball was caught but knocked loose - however the WR didn't get a catch (or a drop - that was added later too).

However, it obviously uses the FFumble check for knocked loose, and FFumble *was* tweaked about then. Add into the fact that it was right at the time of the ISlam debacle where all the defenses were pouring on Str trying to stop the falling forward for yards and broken tackles, and there you have it. In fact, when the FFumble was first tweaked (silently, I believe) the deflection on the ball was so great that the balls knocked loose were getting intercepted at a horrific rate, leading to several weeks of knocked loose - interceptions skyrocketing. So Bort turned down the amount of upward deflection on a knocked loose and those got back under control.

So here we are - currently WRs and TEs probably have more KLs than they should. And it's the age old question - tweak the sim or let the builds adjust? It's hard, because the pro level builds have gotten to a point where they are stagnating and the pros won't be different via builds for several more seasons. At the same time, we all know how awful it is to tweak the sim when builds will likely adjust to address this (DEs were so terrible for so long, and it really didn't need to happen as OTs were finally catching up build-wise).

Honestly, this is where testers could possibly come in handy, but not without letting them test out various builds specifically to see if certain amounts of stats create reasonable players, which is exactly what people don't want to happen on the test server as the data isn't likely to get disseminated well. WRs are so expensive that there aren't going to be enough experimental builds running around, either. It'd be nice if some people would mock up some various reasonable build choices (not completely maxxing out the stats all the way, but just pretty close to the right #s you could get) and see what different realistic choices you have for 50s and 60s WRs, and then have the testers play around with those builds and see what the tradeoffs are with each build. If you have to choose between blazing fast but gets jarred loose frequently and slower but able to bring down the ball in traffic and hold on when a LB hits him, then that's an interesting trade-off. If instead you have to choose between fast but can't pull in a catch, or able to hold on but not able to break out of coverage to get the ball, then it's a crappy trade-off.
 
NiborRis
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Also, as everyone's mentioned, the Jackhammer VA is probably overpowered. A VA to oppose that may or may not be the answer - I won't lie, I don't have enough WR to know if there are enough good VAs for WRs or not. If there aren't, then a VA answer is kind of stupid as everyone will just get it, but once again if you're giving up something good for a "Bring In The Ball" VA then it's interesting. Good gameplay/build diversity in MMOs generally relies on meaningful tradeoffs.
 
steellithium
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Originally posted by jrry32
Um how much experience do you have with Pro teams?


None in GLB, but I know football. A slot receiver isn't the same as a number 1 receiver in the NFL or NCAA. There are some very effective slot receivers out there though, and their value is well understood by many teams. The Redskins as a example ruined Randle El by lining him up as a flanker. He is very effective in the slot.
 
Deathblade
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Originally posted by NiborRis
Also, as everyone's mentioned, the Jackhammer VA is probably overpowered. A VA to oppose that may or may not be the answer - I won't lie, I don't have enough WR to know if there are enough good VAs for WRs or not. If there aren't, then a VA answer is kind of stupid as everyone will just get it, but once again if you're giving up something good for a "Bring In The Ball" VA then it's interesting. Good gameplay/build diversity in MMOs generally relies on meaningful tradeoffs.


There isn't...basically, "Streaky" is the best WR VA.
 
Michael Vick
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Originally posted by steellithium
Originally posted by jrry32

Um how much experience do you have with Pro teams?


None in GLB, but I know football. A slot receiver isn't the same as a number 1 receiver in the NFL or NCAA. There are some very effective slot receivers out there though, and their value is well understood by many teams. The Redskins as a example ruined Randle El by lining him up as a flanker. He is very effective in the slot.


He's saying that there are Pro Teams like that
 
23yrwej
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Originally posted by steellithium
Originally posted by jrry32

Um how much experience do you have with Pro teams?


None in GLB, but I know football. A slot receiver isn't the same as a number 1 receiver in the NFL or NCAA. There are some very effective slot receivers out there though, and their value is well understood by many teams. The Redskins as a example ruined Randle El by lining him up as a flanker. He is very effective in the slot.


So do I and I know that but NFL =/= GLB for one and GLB Pro teams usually will have a possession WR and/or an agility WR. It's just that speed is the most effective. And yes, guys like Wes Welker are very effective but on GLB they don't work all that well.
 
NiborRis
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Originally posted by Deathblade
There isn't...basically, "Streaky" is the best WR VA.


And, thus, a VA answer to Jackhammer is kind of a crap solution, unless 4 or 5 more useful WR VAs come out too.
 
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Originally posted by jrry32
Um how much experience do you have with Pro teams?


I know where you were headed with that question, but a long-time concern that I've had is this sim's (and its player base's) addiction to "speed". You may very well indeed have 3 or more types of WR build at the Pro Level, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the somewhere in the build guide for ALL varieties of WR would be instuction that was the equivalent of "Max speed, then max agility." Once that advice is followed, how many XPs are REALISTICALLY left over to differentiate WR builds?
 
maizenhops
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build issue imo
 
23yrwej
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Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
Originally posted by jrry32

Um how much experience do you have with Pro teams?


I know where you were headed with that question, but a long-time concern that I've had is this sim's (and its player base's) addiction to "speed". You may very well indeed have 3 or more types of WR build at the Pro Level, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the somewhere in the build guide for ALL varieties of WR would be instuction that was the equivalent of "Max speed, then max agility." Once that advice is followed, how many XPs are REALISTICALLY left over to differentiate WR builds?


A lot actually especially with eq.
 
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