Warrior General Games

Again, by pushing more sacks against the "safer" and most often pass plays called, you are just driving offenses to spam even fewer plays to avoid as many sacks as possibly and further limiting pass calling diversity which to me sounds counterproductive.

Maybe limit the effectiveness of TEs on the same ol' pass play calls. Force offensive coordinators to open up the PB a bit more. Or maybe force offensive PBs to have both more plays in them as a minimum and change the priority scale 1-3 as opposed to 1-5. Additionally, only allow 1-2 plays max per formation within the PB.

If we find a way to force greater offensive diversity with playcalling, we may be able to adjust pass related stats and abilities without forcing more spam. Of course, I may be of the few that care about being able to run a wider array of formations.

Originally posted by Adderfist
True or False : A Guard with 25 pass awr, 45 ppt, 20 prp should give up more then 3 sacks a season?

Absolutely should. See my comments on spam offenses. The same spam offensive passing plays have been run for many, many years. This is because they are sack resistant and get the ball out quick (usually to the TE). Spam is the sack issues problem IMO.

Originally posted by Detroit Leos
That does not sound like anything that I have gotten away with in the run game. I must have been doing it wrong all these years I guess. I have always pushed my OLine to around 80 RBT and around 40 RBP if I can squeeze it. Usually not quite able to depending on pass blocking investments, trying to get balance decent and so on...

The whole thing with building to pass block is to just hold on long enough so the QB can throw the ball quickly which occurs more due to spamming the same BS plays that every passing attack is essentially forced to run. The spam and playcalling is what needs to be looked at if you guys want to improve sack numbers IMO.



If you want to rely on the line to make plays, just like if you want the o-line to be able to buy more time, those numbers won't cut it.

But if you are using that as a way to let the player focus on the pass rush so LBs can be your primary run stoppers, or rely on a DT on the side of you who is more run focused to make that play, he can still play a vital part in the run game with minimal investment without being a true liability. Of course more is better, but when you can tie up a monster with minimal investment it feels... off, and it's much worse in how an offensive linemen can hold up as long as they do.


My DT Sivraj is squeaking by with 55 hold ground and 40 tech - and he's not even got anything to help prevent him from being pushed upfield, and he's doing actually decently in run support for the team... which is just nuts.

Originally posted by Raid
If you want to rely on the line to make plays, just like if you want the o-line to be able to buy more time, those numbers won't cut it.

But if you are using that as a way to let the player focus on the pass rush so LBs can be your primary run stoppers, or rely on a DT on the side of you who is more run focused to make that play, he can still play a vital part in the run game with minimal investment without being a true liability. Of course more is better, but when you can tie up a monster with minimal investment it feels... off, and it's much worse in how an offensive linemen can hold up as long as they do.


My DT Sivraj is squeaking by with 55 hold ground and 40 tech - and he's not even got anything to help prevent him from being pushed upfield, and he's doing actually decently in run support for the team... which is just nuts.

Now I am confused... I thought you were talking about an OLinemen getting away with so little... Now you are showing a DT getting away with little on run block skills. My numbers were for OLine... For DLine I still typically push high 80s BRB and at least 50 HG typically.

Originally posted by Detroit Leos
Now I am confused... I thought you were talking about an OLinemen getting away with so little... Now you are showing a DT getting away with little on run block skills. My numbers were for OLine... For DLine I still typically push high 80s BRB and at least 50 HG typically.

I'm saying both have their inherent weaknesses and strengths.


And that we didn't need a buff to pass blocking as evidenced by the numbers people put on their O-linemen, and the large investment most people who run man to man defenses have to put into their pass rushing on d-linemen.

Originally posted by Raid
I'm saying both have their inherent weaknesses and strengths.


And that we didn't need a buff to pass blocking as evidenced by the numbers people put on their O-linemen.

Again, the sack issue lies more with the pass spam offenses. Those plays are the plays that get the ball out quick and have low sack rates. I am still waiting to see data to see how much better off pass blocking is with ABS than it was without. Regardless, PRP is not cheap as an activating skill. If the brand spanking new SA ends up needing tweaked because it is in fact, too powerful, the devs can make those adjustments later. Adding new quality SAs is nice as it provides build options and more diversity.

However, if you guys truly want to get the sack game right which I have no issues with, I think we need to look at where passing is and has been as a whole for a looong time. If we just buff the piss out of DLines or whatever to up our sack rates, passing offenses will surely just crawl further in to a shell and spam fewer plays to try to ensure that they take less sacks. We should be pushing to do it right and both up sack rates and work on ensuring that passing offenses can still find success in the less desired plays that are hardly run.

Didn't Bort change the point cost for OL skills years ago because they were pretty OP or what was the reason?

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
Didn't Bort change the point cost for OL skills years ago because they were pretty OP or what was the reason?

Pure rushing offenses or pure passing OLines that were able to load up on tech and power and could just demolish defenses that had too much to juggle trying to be able to play against anything and everything over the course of the season. It was one of many steps which made either pure offense less seen.

Originally posted by Adderfist
I think Xars build of 75tech, 50 power is acceptable. That's a solid investment for a balanced team. Then they should still be giving up sacks but not at a wild number low or high. I maintain that reducing the cost(by around 30%) of the tech and power while reducing their in game impact(by around 50%) would be a great start so that caps actually matter.
That's totally fair, and I would agree with this. I guess my problem is why some are upset with the SA AUnit, which isn't going to fire all that much at 50 Pass Block Power. And even when it does, The SA boost isn't going to turn back the high end DLs with 90+ Power. It just seems like a good SA that helps OL builds that actually invest SP on their core skill. No different from a run blocking OL build with Immovable Object. A build with only 20 Pass Block Power will do nothing with AU.

And for me that seems the goal of Devs, to allow diverse builds and teams.

Originally posted by

True or False : A Guard with 25 pass awr, 45 ppt, 20 prp should give up more then 3 sacks a season?

I would say the Guard should get beat like a drum in "blocking interactions" with a good DLinemen. Whether it becomes a sack depends on other factors though. I've made many Rushing QBs over the years, and they avoid sacks often because they can avoid pressure with their feet. My Shed Sack QBs broke tackles from pass rushers(took plenty of sacks too). Your point about Pocket Awareness isn't lost though, I get it. But to me you should focus on that skill, and not pass blocking interactions where 45/20 builds already get smashed.

The main thing I fear is that since it's not needed at the moment, a buff could lead to someone building a team around it and a S* offensive line - like the anti-RIF.

55/45 for pass protection and suddenly they have all day pass blocking, and then just make immaculate run blockers.

Nobody is specc'd to take advantage of it yet, and it's largely not going to be used right now because of that. But it's a bit insane to drop tech of the pass rusher when it's something people have to spam like nuts to even try to have a chance of getting to the QB in time.

You can blame the meta of quick passes, but when the league is largely man to man defense that's how you have to try and attack it. We'll see how it all pans out in a half year or so I suppose.

Originally posted by Raid
The main thing I fear is that since it's not needed at the moment, a buff could lead to someone building a team around it and a S* offensive line - like the anti-RIF.

55/45 for pass protection and suddenly they have all day pass blocking, and then just make immaculate run blockers.

Nobody is specc'd to take advantage of it yet, and it's largely not going to be used right now because of that. But it's a bit insane to drop tech of the pass rusher when it's something people have to spam like nuts to even try to have a chance of getting to the QB in time.

You can blame the meta of quick passes, but when the league is largely man to man defense that's how you have to try and attack it. We'll see how it all pans out in a half year or so I suppose.

i would say until someone does it we play a wait and see

Originally posted by Adderfist
True or False : A Guard with 25 pass awr, 45 ppt, 20 prp should give up more then 3 sacks a season?

I don't know what shitty teams Guards you are using for this example lol. I have never built a guard that terrible and expected to pass the ball.

Adder dude what do you expect Olineman to look like that is fair? All I have seen you say is let's make a bunch of dots that suck ass while your DLine should dominate every single play no matter what.

Honestly man what are you so mad about truly? Because I have never seen my DLine have trouble being successful defending the pass or run. Most of my star DE still average 1.5-2 sacks a game at Vet level. That seems pretty damn fair and dominate. If you make Olineman even weaker like you are saying then my defense would never allow another touchdown again. Then I would be the asshole that beats on people and doesn't let people play the game and have fun. Truly the Oline and DLine to me (truly my opinion) are the only place I don't have issues with in the game. You can make dots on either side of the ball to dominate or be balanced and still be good. Please show me with actual evidence where the DLine is terrible and can't be good?

Exactly what Bo said above, pass block power at 50 (nobody fucking has that!) Still will not fire the SA very often. Which means your DLine based on 90 pass rush power will still rape most offense lines. So the SA really won't affect much at all but a 1-2% difference. Oh no you got 4 less sacks all season.

Originally posted by BoDiddley

which isn't going to fire all that much at 50 Pass Block Power

At Gold you will see this fire on every pass play, at 25% per losing interaction It should take 1-4 interactions worth to fire. Same thing for leverage and resolute if you watch any replays with those. - My BIGGEST (not only) issue with the SA is that it takes 33% from the tech roll of the DL at all ranks.

Originally posted by dredgar
I don't know what shitty teams Guards you are using for this example lol. I have never built a guard that terrible and expected to pass the ball.

Actual OL player- Actual stats. Still pass the ball.

Originally posted by

Adder dude what do you expect Olineman to look like that is fair? All I have seen you say is let's make a bunch of dots that suck ass while your DLine should dominate every single play no matter what.

I want their points to respect what the line is good at and punish lines that are not matched up correctly. Spending Sub 20% of your builds points on one of the two things you're supposed to be good at should have repercussions.

Originally posted by

Honestly man what are you so mad about truly? Because I have never seen my DLine have trouble being successful defending the pass or run. Most of my star DE still average 1.5-2 sacks a game at Vet level. That seems pretty damn fair and dominate. If you make Olineman even weaker like you are saying then my defense would never allow another touchdown again. Then I would be the asshole that beats on people and doesn't let people play the game and have fun. Truly the Oline and DLine to me (truly my opinion) are the only place I don't have issues with in the game. You can make dots on either side of the ball to dominate or be balanced and still be good. Please show me with actual evidence where the DLine is terrible and can't be good?

I'm irritated that we're stacking changes that all fuck DL and nobody seems to care. These changes are all bad for the game as they are balanced now. Look at your following statement even. Nobody has a base amount of pass block power. You're balking at FIFTY.

Originally posted by

Exactly what Bo said above, pass block power at 50 (nobody fucking has that!) Still will not fire the SA very often. Which means your DLine based on 90 pass rush power will still rape most offense lines. So the SA really won't affect much at all but a 1-2% difference. Oh no you got 4 less sacks all season.
It will fire in the first 1 to 4 interactions usually. So every play. And if they don't have a decent amount of pass tech/power maybe they should be punished more heavily. I get it, you want to run the ball and not have to spend any points on pass blocking. But if you end up facing a team specialized on the pass rush maybe you should suffer.

Originally posted by Adderfist

At Gold you will see this fire on every pass play, at 25% per losing interaction It should take 1-4 interactions worth to fire. Same thing for leverage and resolute if you watch any replays with those. - My BIGGEST (not only) issue with the SA is that it takes 33% from the tech roll of the DL at all ranks.




it'll fire about 70% of the time not 100%,

you would need 11 interactions to get to 95+%