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_OSIRIS_
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I mean wtf do you guys want? Go back to passes being unstoppable and DBs not doing what they built to do? Back to the double team and triple team auto receptions? If I know you are going to pass I would expect very nicely built DBs to be able to stop it with in the right play. I mean force me into a 4 man front, make me keep 3 LBs on the field, if you just want to spam mindless passes then don't expect to just roll through me. If you just throw deep passes to WR1 and your TE you make it way too easy, and it should be easy. Rock, paper scissors. If I know you only pick rock every single time I'm going to pick paper everytime.
Edited by _OSIRIS_ on Jun 10, 2018 23:48:50
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
I mean wtf do you guys want? Go back to passes being unstoppable and DBs not doing what they built to do? Back to the double team and triple team auto receptions? If I know you are going to pass I would expect very nicely built DBs to be able to stop it with in the right play. I mean force me into a 4 man front, make me keep 3 LBs on the field, if you just want to spam mindless passes then don't expect to just roll through me. If you just throw deep passes to WR1 and your TE you make it way too easy, and it should be easy. Rock, paper scissors. If I know you only pick rock every single time I'm going to pick paper everytime.


Passes were never unstoppable though. Most QBs were in the 55%-65% range which mirrors the NFL. Devs already added a penalty for passes into double.trip coverage way back when INTs were buffed. I do think pass defense needs fixes and have said them ad-nausem in these suggestions threads over the years.

1) add coverage tactics. Defense against 2 TE sets for example would be much better if I could have my LBs play tight coverage. If I'm matched up against a speed WR I would want loose coverage(assuming we ever get separation back)

2) Fix DB AI. Rush defense got what it needed when pathing was finally updated. Now the same is needed in the secondary. A CB with 95+ awareness should be breaking towards the pass better(would also make zone D work against the pass too, think the Seahawks). But as always, SP investment should be required. A CB with 50 awareness should be mediocre.

3) Teams that only utilize WR1 and a TE should be easy to cover....but heavy pass teams usually utilize about 4-5 different receivers in their gameplans.
Edited by BoDiddley on Jun 11, 2018 00:22:55
 
Bretto007
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Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
I mean wtf do you guys want? Go back to passes being unstoppable and DBs not doing what they built to do? Back to the double team and triple team auto receptions? If I know you are going to pass I would expect very nicely built DBs to be able to stop it with in the right play. I mean force me into a 4 man front, make me keep 3 LBs on the field, if you just want to spam mindless passes then don't expect to just roll through me. If you just throw deep passes to WR1 and your TE you make it way too easy, and it should be easy. Rock, paper scissors. If I know you only pick rock every single time I'm going to pick paper everytime.


I like your passion!

I have an observation that seems related to this conversation. I've had a couple different teams in the last few seasons pick up Star WRs with 100 speed. I've been amazed at how often the opposing DB is able to cover them effectively downfield with single coverage playing man to man. Seems to me if you had a 100 speed receiver he should be getting open more often than not unless they did double coverage or blitzed you.
 
Corndog
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
When top teams are playing each other and neither QB even breaks 50%, that's a glaring issue.


Your QB has only had three games under 50% this season. All three of them scrimmages.

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/556749 - Other team had a 74% completion rate
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/559998 - Other team had a 54.5% completion rate
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/556973 - Other team had a 56% completion rate

Which top teams are you talking about here?
 
_OSIRIS_
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
Passes were never unstoppable though. Most QBs were in the 55%-65% range which mirrors the NFL. Devs already added a penalty for passes into double.trip coverage way back when INTs were buffed. I do think pass defense needs fixes and have said them ad-nausem in these suggestions threads over the years.

1) add coverage tactics. Defense against 2 TE sets for example would be much better if I could have my LBs play tight coverage. If I'm matched up against a speed WR I would want loose coverage(assuming we ever get separation back)

2) Fix DB AI. Rush defense got what it needed when pathing was finally updated. Now the same is needed in the secondary. A CB with 95+ awareness should be breaking towards the pass better(would also make zone D work against the pass too, think the Seahawks). But as always, SP investment should be required. A CB with 50 awareness should be mediocre.

3) Teams that only utilize WR1 and a TE should be easy to cover....but heavy pass teams usually utilize about 4-5 different receivers in their gameplans.


1) You can do that. You just can't set individual player cushions. Short, Medium, and long pass tags.

2) Agree with all of that

3) You would be surprised how many don't, not in the same formation anyways. Forcing us to target the TE as the first target seems to limit our options.
 
Nyria
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Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
I mean wtf do you guys want? Go back to passes being unstoppable and DBs not doing what they built to do? Back to the double team and triple team auto receptions? If I know you are going to pass I would expect very nicely built DBs to be able to stop it with in the right play. I mean force me into a 4 man front, make me keep 3 LBs on the field, if you just want to spam mindless passes then don't expect to just roll through me. If you just throw deep passes to WR1 and your TE you make it way too easy, and it should be easy. Rock, paper scissors. If I know you only pick rock every single time I'm going to pick paper everytime.


Depends what you mean by unstoppable. Someone could look at high level real life football and by some definitions call some passing offenses "unstoppable," like the Brady-led Patriots for years, if what you mean is most of the time when they get the ball they're going to score, even if you have a good defense and even if you play the pass.

But of course unless your pass offense is really exceptional and the opponent's pass defense isn't, there's a significant turnover risk if you go pass heavy. You'll also punt even less, if you pass more in real football; but you risk picks and QB fumbles. And you likely will lose it on at least one extra turnover per game. That's the down side. You can run more, have fewer turnovers, but punt more. So in the NFL and even much more in NCAA football, there are coaches who win with high-flying pass offenses and others who win with smashmouth run offenses. But the tradeoff is passing is very hard to stop, while running is safer from turnovers.

No team gets by passing (or running) all the time or 90% of the time in real life, either. GLB2 makes an all pass (or all run) offense work better than it could in real life, since we build the players. So, a team that plans to be all pass, the O-linemen put all their points into pass blocking, the backs are scat backs, and the TE and WR's don't bother being able to block at all. You can't get extreme builds like that in real life, so it makes all pass or all run offenses more workable in GLB2. I'm not sure how I feel about that working. On one hand I'd like to let there be some distortions based on how people build, but on the other hand any real team has to be able to both run or pass.

They're on the right track on that with the bonus for guessing run or pass. If it were up to me I might give the defense other bonuses just for a team only (or almost only) running or passing within a game, as well as for facing the same play over and over again-- enough to at least balance out the benefits of being able to build all players only for either running or passing but not both, to make sure it's at least very hard to win a league with only run or pass plays, but probably not impossible.

But if you're 70/30 pass, which some real life college teams succeed with, and you have very good pass personnel, it should be very hard to force you to punt. You'll also be intercepted some, just by throwing that many passes. All that said, I'd be afraid of making too huge of changes, because there definitely is a point where games between top teams could end up all being 52-45, and that would be awful as well, less balanced than now.

Passing really moves the ball very well in real life, and if it didn't teams wouldn't take the interception/QB fumble risk to do it.

I think some want a more defensive game then real football, to have a better chance to stop offenses, because (I haven't proven this through looking it up, but I'd be very surprised if it were not true) most real offenses score on most real life possessions. Given the punt rate, it has to be true that most real offenses score on most possessions that don't end in a turnover.

(Fixed a mistake from a stat I got wrong, did not have to post this here, could have just edited it out, but I'm choosing to admit my mistake; average punts per season per NFL team are over 70, closer to 6 per game rather than the 3-4 I had said).
Edited by Nyria on Jun 11, 2018 01:15:15
Edited by Nyria on Jun 11, 2018 01:12:08
Edited by Nyria on Jun 11, 2018 00:42:39
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by Corndog
Your QB has only had three games under 50% this season. All three of them scrimmages.

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/556749 - Other team had a 74% completion rate
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/559998 - Other team had a 54.5% completion rate
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/556973 - Other team had a 56% completion rate

Which top teams are you talking about here?


A game like this one: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/558942

And Dream Team has a S* QB, S* scatback, and 4 S* receivers, so we're able to do things that other teams can't like use HB screens heavily, or be effective in 5WR sets. A quality team like Mango goes up against a great Mountaineer defense and threw for 32%: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/554974 . Sure, Kentucky should be tough...but this is way beyond that.
 
_OSIRIS_
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Originally posted by Bretto007
I like your passion!

I have an observation that seems related to this conversation. I've had a couple different teams in the last few seasons pick up Star WRs with 100 speed. I've been amazed at how often the opposing DB is able to cover them effectively downfield with single coverage playing man to man. Seems to me if you had a 100 speed receiver he should be getting open more often than not unless they did double coverage or blitzed you.


They get open just fine but the QB very rarely hits them in stride. They always seem slow down for the ball and the CB catches up. I complete very few of these, especially deep streaks and goes. Medium flag and post patterns speed receivers seem to work very well with much less separation.
 
Corndog
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Originally posted by Nyria
But if you're 70/30 pass, which some real life college teams succeed with, and you have very good pass personnel, it should be very hard to force you to punt


https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/team/1367
771 pass attempts
498 rush attempts
14-1 record, second best team in the game

Not quite 70/30, but definitely leans toward the pass
 
Corndog
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Originally posted by BoDiddley
A quality team like Mango goes up against a great Mountaineer defense and threw for 32%


The difference being, if something isn't working in real life, teams stop doing it. If something isn't working in GLB, you keep doing it for the rest of the game. I'm perfectly fine with teams getting shutdown so hard if the defense keys in on their playcalling, the same way the offense will put up 60+ points if they do the same to defense.
 
BoDiddley
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Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
1) You can do that. You just can't set individual player cushions. Short, Medium, and long pass tags.

2) Agree with all of that

3) You would be surprised how many don't, not in the same formation anyways. Forcing us to target the TE as the first target seems to limit our options.


1) Yes, but setting tactics on the individual level is key, just like with pathing. TE routes are quick, so I want my LOLB or SS to play tight. WR2 routes are usually long so I would usually play that loose. A team that just spammed a few set plays would be killed if we had that.

3) I'm not familiar with heavy pass teams under Vet, so you might be right. i know AA used to use all 4 WRs nicely, Dream uses our receivers and HB. Bloody has nice distribution too. But I agree that teams just using WR1/TE should be easy to cover.
 
Nyria
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Originally posted by Corndog
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/team/1367
771 pass attempts
498 rush attempts
14-1 record, second best team in the game

Not quite 70/30, but definitely leans toward the pass


Great team, no doubt. You can win at 70-30 pass, no doubt.

Editing the post because I was wrong. The average NFL team punted over 70, close to 75, times in 16 games, and that team's punter has only punted 57 times in 15. Passing should mean fewer punts (but more turnovers) and team quality should mean fewer punts. I still think there are more punts than is realistic overall, but it isn't by as far as I thought. We definitely know the completion rate is lower than real life, and if that were all due to throwing longer passes ypa would be as high as real life, but they are not (ypa is closer than completion rate though, so more of the issue is short passes being weak).
Edited by Nyria on Jun 11, 2018 01:20:29
Edited by Nyria on Jun 11, 2018 01:07:13
 
_OSIRIS_
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Top 5 teams all lean towards pass. Pretty solid number aside from GE who is hurt by a few homerun plays that are being stopped.

1) 53% pass 60.40% 7.1ypa
2) 60% pass 58.50% 7.0ypa
3) 64% pass 61.36% 7.6ypa
4) 51% pass 48.00% 5.6ypa
5) 55% Pass 64.05% 8.5ypa
 
Nyria
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Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
Top 5 teams all lean towards pass. Pretty solid number aside from GE who is hurt by a few homerun plays that are being stopped.

1) 53% pass 60.40% 7.1ypa
2) 60% pass 58.50% 7.0ypa
3) 64% pass 61.36% 7.6ypa
4) 51% pass 48.00% 5.6ypa
5) 55% Pass 64.05% 8.5ypa


#5 is what all the best passing offenses should look like-- not in being able to do that every game but because they'll face some awful defenses and would put up 75% comp% and over 10 ypa against them. That even one very good team (#4) has under a 50% completion percentage, despite that they face some awful teams, shows that comp% especially is low. #2 would be somewhere near an average NFL team's passing offense, not a top one, and NFL teams don't get to face incompetent defenses in some of their games that inflate their stats.
 
_OSIRIS_
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Originally posted by Nyria
Great team, no doubt. You can win at 70-30 pass, no doubt.

Editing the post because I was wrong. The average NFL team punted about 75 times in 16 games, and that team's punter has only punted 57 times in 15. Passing should mean fewer punts (but more turnovers) and team quality should mean fewer punts. I still think there are more punts than is realistic overall, but it isn't by as far as I thought.


I think the opposite. At least here it leads to more three and outs. It also leads to more possessions with the clock stopped so often. A 3-4 yard run on first down leads to a much higher % pass to get to the first down marker. Bronx is a good example punting just 35 times.
 
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