Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Adderfist
your argument lacks substance and is wrong.

I looked at builds I had access to, imported them into scout then removed from their builds the pass tech and power. 20k, 35k and xars at the most with 65k. - again lower than what most rookie dl spend.

fix this with making points easier to cap so every build can't take early bloomer as the defacto correct choice. make points mean less so they don't benefit from extra.

What numbers are we comparing? I can take a DL to BOTH 90+ Pass Tech & 90 Pass Rush Power for only 75k

So Xars has to spend 65k just to get to 70/50, which pales in comparison to the 90/90 DLs get at 75k. What exactly is a DL spending points on that OLs aren't'? In their core skills, DLs have a much bigger advantage with points, it's not even really close.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
What numbers are we comparing? I can take a DL to BOTH 90+ Pass Tech & 90 Pass Rush Power for only 75k

So Xars has to spend 65k just to get to 70/50, which pales in comparison to the 90/90 DLs get at 75k. What exactly is a DL spending points on that OLs aren't'? In their core skills, DLs have a much bigger advantage with points, it's not even really close.


Because OL can always choose to go pure run blocking or pure pass blocking that DL cannot and it breaks the interactions for that side of the ball. DL have to be able to play both. Offense can just choose to not engage in one side of the game. And shockingly, they have to be balanced around that fact. Weird.

Originally posted by Adderfist
punish teams with end build values of sub 50 tech and sub 30 power. Why are they allowed to pass with zero investment in pass protection? Why do they get to spend 22% of their build GIVING THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT FOR 65K.(75 tech, 50 power) want to fix the run? make people actuall have to invest in pass protect.

Aren't they? Legit Question because as you said I respec'd my Oline to Pass Tech of 66-74 and Pass Power of 45-50 and I'm still taking Sacks. Of course my QB has 40 Pocket Awareness and isn't a Shed Sack build either.

It's brought down my RBT a lot to fund it so overall I think that's good thing for game balance. I'm not having insane RBT scores (90+) by tweaking the hell out of a EB build.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
What numbers are we comparing? I can take a DL to BOTH 90+ Pass Tech & 90 Pass Rush Power for only 75k

So Xars has to spend 65k just to get to 70/50, which pales in comparison to the 90/90 DLs get at 75k. What exactly is a DL spending points on that OLs aren't'? In their core skills, DLs have a much bigger advantage with points, it's not even really close.


I don't think he's complaining about my builds but others. Could be wrong. I've got 67k SPs in my OTs Pass Blocking skills which is 30%-ish (72k or 35% in Run).

Originally posted by ellix
Because OL can always choose to go pure run blocking or pure pass blocking that DL cannot and it breaks the interactions for that side of the ball. DL have to be able to play both. Offense can just choose to not engage in one side of the game. And shockingly, they have to be balanced around that fact. Weird.

You always could/can but the Play Diversity bonus is designed as an incentive not to.

Originally posted by ellix
Because OL can always choose to go pure run blocking or pure pass blocking that DL cannot and it breaks the interactions for that side of the ball. DL have to be able to play both. Offense can just choose to not engage in one side of the game. And shockingly, they have to be balanced around that fact. Weird.

DL builds play only to pass or run all the time too, way more so than OL builds in GLB2. And then you have some builds that are all tech or power. OLines are giving up half a playbook if they skip run or pass, while taking a diversity penalty.

A GLB2 non S* DE can have 70 Pass Rush Tech, 70 Pass Rush Power, 70 Break Run Block, 70 Hold Ground, ALL for...87k points.

A GLB2 non S* OT can have 70 Pass Block Tech, 70 Pass Rush Power, 70 Run Block Tech, 70 Run Block Power, All for a whopping....210k (all the points in a boosted Vet)

^
You don't even have points left to put anywhere else for the OT. ALL the SP available for a Vet would have to go to just those four skills to hit 70/70/70/70. While the DE does it for 120k less.

So for a SA like AUnit, you have to invest in 75/75 for it to even be all that useful which is 94k. 75/85 is around 120k points investment, and you still need run blocking, conditioning, toughness, footwork, etc.

One thing to remember is that a DL has to invest heavily into tackling skills or risk being a liability in the run game. It does no good to shed a block if the DL then gets run over by the power back.

S* HBs still rule this game even with all the advantages DLs have over OLs.

So far from what I've seen Abs Unit hasn't really been amazing, at least against TV. It fires but the OL gets pushed back just the same. It's possible our current OL builds don't have enough flexibility to swing the PBP requirement. Most OL builds are focused on run blocking.

It will take a pass focused team or a team gutsy enough to take PBP higher than PBT to truly test its effectiveness.

Originally posted by Adderfist
punish teams with end build values of sub 50 tech and sub 30 power. Why are they allowed to pass with zero investment in pass protection? Why do they get to spend 22% of their build GIVING THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT FOR 65K.(75 tech, 50 power) want to fix the run? make people actuall have to invest in pass protect.

If you do this then you kill all run ability and now nobody can have any offense, adder you know better

Originally posted by darkwingaa
One thing to remember is that a DL has to invest heavily into tackling skills or risk being a liability in the run game. It does no good to shed a block if the DL then gets run over by the power back.

S* HBs still rule this game even with all the advantages DLs have over OLs.

So far from what I've seen Abs Unit hasn't really been amazing, at least against TV. It fires but the OL gets pushed back just the same. It's possible our current OL builds don't have enough flexibility to swing the PBP requirement. Most OL builds are focused on run blocking.

It will take a pass focused team or a team gutsy enough to take PBP higher than PBT to truly test its effectiveness.

Which is exactly what I have been saying, it gives a small boost to an Oline but still does not kill or stop a power based DL. Adder is just pissed that his team will get two less sacks a game.

Originally posted by dredgar
Which is exactly what I have been saying, it gives a small boost to an Oline but still does not kill or stop a power based DL. Adder is just pissed that his team will get two less sacks a game.

Adder and I run more than one team you know. In fact, we run Salvo which might be the most positively affected team of these changes currently in the game. They're still bad changes.

Originally posted by Xars
Aren't they? Legit Question because as you said I respec'd my Oline to Pass Tech of 66-74 and Pass Power of 45-50 and I'm still taking Sacks. Of course my QB has 40 Pocket Awareness and isn't a Shed Sack build either.

It's brought down my RBT a lot to fund it so overall I think that's good thing for game balance. I'm not having insane RBT scores (90+) by tweaking the hell out of a EB build.


I'd say your OL builds are the most realistic builds for a run leaning team. It's closer to what should be required from an OL. I still think there should be more of an investment for a pass first team (which I know you're not) to protect the QB. Your QB and WR builds I think end up being why you take sacks more often. The lower quickness means you don't get going quite as fast and the lower footwork and pocket awr on the QB hurts too.

Right now 75 pocket aware QB's with somewhat faster WR's can let teams get away with 50ppt/25ppp from their OL. When compared with 95 tech 90 power DT's and DE's they still measure up. This lets OL go all in on the run. Not pointed at Xars at all, If you're playing pass rush specialists and you're a full run line and decide to pass, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PASS SUCCESSFULLY.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
DL builds play only to pass or run all the time too, way more so than OL builds in GLB2. And then you have some builds that are all tech or power. OLines are giving up half a playbook if they skip run or pass, while taking a diversity penalty.

A GLB2 non S* DE can have 70 Pass Rush Tech, 70 Pass Rush Power, 70 Break Run Block, 70 Hold Ground, ALL for...87k points.

A GLB2 non S* OT can have 70 Pass Block Tech, 70 Pass Rush Power, 70 Run Block Tech, 70 Run Block Power, All for a whopping....210k (all the points in a boosted Vet)

^
You don't even have points left to put anywhere else for the OT. ALL the SP available for a Vet would have to go to just those four skills to hit 70/70/70/70. While the DE does it for 120k less.

So for a SA like AUnit, you have to invest in 75/75 for it to even be all that useful which is 94k. 75/85 is around 120k points investment, and you still need run blocking, conditioning, toughness, footwork, etc.
Again, Terrible argument.

Forgetting about the 60k+ value of blitz awr, tacking skills, pursuit

Originally posted by Adderfist

Again, Terrible argument.

Forgetting about the 60k+ value of blitz awr, tacking skills, pursuit



OLs have Pass Block awr, Run Block awr, Lead Block awr too. And are at a significantly bigger SP disadvantage in comparison.

Tell me what stats you think are acceptable for a OL build. At what benchmarks should Pass Protection been allowed?

im not sure what the arguements really are here. OL was and is still after this new skill at a significant disadvantage.

Originally posted by ThePh33P
im not sure what the arguements really are here. OL was and is still after this new skill at a significant disadvantage.

Frankly, absolutely true.

But already, teams were going 50/30 pass tech/power and holding up long enough to have a good - not even just decent - passing game.

The place they are most outmatched is in the run game, where linemen get away wit dropping 50 tech and 30 HG - and still be able to occupy a hugely invested run blocker perfectly well without being pancaked often.

Now, the linemen isn't going to make a play there, but he's a part of the whole by not going down, same with the offensive linemen who is holding up fine against a grueling pass rush, he's not winning but he's also not going down which is winning for an offensive linemen.




In general, it's a mirror of itself in that regard, and while people tend to think o-line are a bit over matched, and rightfully so, it wasn't so much because of their inability to hold off a pass rush.

Originally posted by Raid
Frankly, absolutely true.
The place they are most outmatched is in the run game, where linemen get away wit dropping 50 tech and 30 HG - and still be able to occupy a hugely invested run blocker perfectly well without being pancaked often.

That does not sound like anything that I have gotten away with in the run game. I must have been doing it wrong all these years I guess. I have always pushed my OLine to around 80 RBT and around 40 RBP if I can squeeze it. Usually not quite able to depending on pass blocking investments, trying to get balance decent and so on...

The whole thing with building to pass block is to just hold on long enough so the QB can throw the ball quickly which occurs more due to spamming the same BS plays that every passing attack is essentially forced to run. The spam and playcalling is what needs to be looked at if you guys want to improve sack numbers IMO.

Originally posted by BoDiddley


Tell me what stats you think are acceptable for a OL build. At what benchmarks should Pass Protection been allowed?


I think Xars build of 75tech, 50 power is acceptable. That's a solid investment for a balanced team. Then they should still be giving up sacks but not at a wild number low or high. I maintain that reducing the cost(by around 30%) of the tech and power while reducing their in game impact(by around 50%) would be a great start so that caps actually matter.

Originally posted by BoDiddly
OLs have Pass Block awr, Run Block awr, Lead Block awr too. And are at a significantly bigger SP disadvantage in comparison.


True or False : A Guard with 25 pass awr, 45 ppt, 20 prp should give up more then 3 sacks a season?