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blln4lyf
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Originally posted by sjmay
Originally posted by blln4lyf

Correct, but they also weren't saying to change it to THIS. You don't listen to people only to make an even worse change, I'm sorry, but that is what this is.


In all fairness, pretty sure they didn't go in thinking this was a worse change, they thought it was more of a middle ground.


Oh, I know, I just don't see how they came to that conclusion.
 
Chysil
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Originally posted by Chysil
Originally posted by Catch22

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader



That's ok, they're still making that part up as they go along.

I love Bort and Catch, but just "winging it" isn't the best business model, particularly so when the folks involved have exclusive control of the "Post" button when it comes to "Announcements".


Didn't really wing it. We talked over the concerns/complaints and tried to figure out a compromise. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we include the pre-game starting morale being impacted by salary, people are going to riot. If we do it based on effective level, people are going to riot. The only thing that seems would make every one happy is to just get rid of salaries, cash, and stadiums. That seems kind of stupid to me.


The other thing you could do is:

still have player salaries and stadiums etc.

-remove EQ fund
-allow for team to purchase resource points. These points could be used to buy EQ like you suggested. They would be allocated to player, and returned when the player left.
-allow for a team to allocate resource points in a contract (like money, only it would be like guaranteeing EQ)
-cap how many resource points a team can have based on level etc (make it so they can afford EQ for everyone, but not multiple)

easy way to do it. Essentially it just makes the EQ be a team thing and not a player thing. When a player left the EQ would still be there (no way to sell it). And he just couldn't EQ it without enough resource points allocated to him.

If a team allowed a player to. He could "destroy" his EQ. This would completely destroy all (or just half if you wanted) resource points the EQ cost. The piece has to be EQ to destroy it. The team could then rebuy the resource points. That way a player could redo his EQ if he wanted to.

player money could be spent on fluff etc


Originally posted by Chysil
If the salary cap is trying to get the teams to be a bit more balanced roster wise, than what's the need for regular, competitive and elite leagues (or AA, AAA, Pro and WL). I mean I thought the idea was just to pull teams of equal skill and let them play each other.

It's working too... my 22 competitive league really is competitive. My 30 elite league is the league of death (in a good way). I don't think there really NEEDS to be a force roster "smoothing out"

I mean look at it this way, player builds are only a portion of what makes a good team (and probably a small portion at that). Game plans are a heavy part of what makes a good team vs a bad team. So even if you gave all the team the same roster of studs, you'd still have the same teams pulling out ahead of the other teams.

So imo, let the good teams pull ahead... and then stick them in an elite league with all the other teams pulling ahead. They'll all probably have good dots and good coordinators. Let the teams with worse dots / coordinators go into the competitive leagues, and the really bad teams go into the regular leagues.

I guess I just don't really see a need for a salary cap (at least not one like it's listed here).

----------------------------------

btw, I didn't really have any major problems with the previous idea. The main thing that worried me was that there was already a large number of teams hurting financially in this system, and the proposed system was significantly more indepth. I was a bit worried that some of those less experienced, less mathematically informed owners would sink even faster. (Like tying a lead belt to someone who already could barely swim)


any comments?
 
Deathblade
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Originally posted by Bort
Not sure if it's a majority or just "some" tbh.

Sounds like a call for a no-finances league and a hardcore league. No idea how the players would mesh when transferring from one type to another, but hey


Just make a CPU league for people like Larry that doesn't want frilly shit.

Exactly like normal league structure except all teams are CPU owned and you can join it just by clicking it.
 
QB Eater
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Originally posted by David Stern
Really dude. LISTEN TO THIS.

People didn't understand the original idea finance change. Now that it is more clear it really looks to be a good idea. E=mc2 thinks the original idea was pure genius compared to this "new proposal"

Just needed it explained better to the average users, and in a thread that was moving 2-3 pages a mn I don't think you were able to see what needed to be done, with keeping up with 3 threads and your spammed inbox.


I understood it and prefer the new proposal.

Remember KISS: Keep it simple st....

 
Saris
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nevermind, I don't care that much either way
Edited by Saris on Apr 17, 2010 00:31:43
 
Team Nucleus
Draft Man
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Originally posted by PierreThomas
Originally posted by Bort

Catch made me do it!

Honestly, though, from lots of lurking and reading I've done, there's definitely plenty of people who would rather not have to deal with finances at all, or very little at least. IMO, there's three types of people who we are dealing with here, and they have different goals. They can be summed up by what mode they choose on Madden or any other sports video game:

- Hardcore players who want to think about everything. They choose "franchise" mode and select the worst team, trying to build them up. They would really like our original plan, but there's probably not as many of them as there are of the other two.
- The average player, who doesn't mind a little thinking, but doesn't want to be bothered too much. They choose "season" mode with their favorite team, and just play through, maybe making a few trades.
- The casual player, who just wants to get into it without hassle. They choose "quick play" with their favorite team vs a random opponent.

Hardcore leagues would be created with all the new bells and whistles, so the hardcore guys can get the "full" experience.
Normal leagues would need a much more simple financial system with a few choices, for the average player.
Casual or super casual leagues cover the guys who just want to play.

Average probably outweighs hardcore by a fair margin, and probably casual too.


I honestly don't know if there is an "in between" financial system out there for the average leagues. Anything stripped down doesn't really cover the bases you need in a financial system, and is therefore superfluous or limiting. Not exactly in an easy spot here.


It might be a hint that this game is too much work when I get three text messages and two calls between 12pm and 1am about GLB and people rage quitting.

Your comparison to Madden fails on so many fronts it is even funny. This game owners are dealing with REAL people not cpu players. This game we can't trade with cpu's for trades that are lopsided as hell. In this game talking one person into signing is a full day's work and a team effort.

To be honest, I've cared less and less about this game over the past 5 seasons. It became so complicated that I couldn't handle all the duties and merged. It took all of three seasons with two of the most dedicated owners in the game to decide it was still too much work for two people and merge again. Now these changes come out and I'm tired of merging and having one or two teams that can compete is just not very much fun because everyone else has already quit.

I'm not rage quitting, way too much thought has gone into this to call it that but this will be my last season on GLB. I don't look forward to logging on, I haven't even had time to watch a game in two seasons and my time spent on GLB is dealing with managing players, VAs, AEQ, money and training players. I rarely get to post on the forums, chat it up with friends I've met through this game and watch games which are the reasons I started playing in the first place.

For many seasons I've warned that this game is getting too much like work and you guys continue to pile it on. You can justify the changes by saying this will only take a couple more hours in the offseason but you just don't get it. You've been adding a couple hours to the offseason for ten seasons now, you've been adding hours to the gameplanning for seasons. It isn't the one financial change or training change that is making people mad, it is the piling on of constant bullshit that has everyone pissed. I literally spend a couple hours a day on the game and in the past spent about 12 hours a day on the game and I DON'T EVEN KNOW ALL THE RULES. Half the VAs don't work, half the SAs don't work, the sim still has simple glitches that haven't been fixed, there is still a large amount of randomness between like players and there is so much that can be improved on.

However, in the name of parity you have added VAs, added AEQ, revamped training, added tagging, added custom depth charts, added defensive playmaker, added progressions and what has it gotten you? A declining player base, massive team mergers and aliances, blow out games, gutted teams, gutted leagues, financial unbalance and unhappy ever shrinking customer base.



+100000000000000000
 
REDAZZ
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You will piss people off. But make it the ones that don't want growth. Those that are narrow sighted. They don't want change because they are in a comfort zone with their cheats and mis-uses of the system. Insider trading between teams to load up one team to buy championships and out level a league for a cheap Gold trophy.

Why can't there be different levels of commitment between the leagues? Some that just want the basic settings to those that want some more control to those that want MAX experience. Can't a team grow through from one level into another? As the skill set of a team grows, let them progress through the ranks and complexities. Without starting over from scratch.
 
Staz
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Originally posted by Bort
Yeah, but we're talking about adding bonus morale here.


I know, but if the morale impacted just those skills, then adding morale wouldn't make them faster, stronger, etc. Just better at their technique.

I don't like tying morale into salaries unless it's in relation to what a player expects. Even then, it shouldn't have an impact on in game morale, perhaps just chemistry. If a player is unhappy with their contract their either hold out or cause a fuss in the locker room/media. Since we aren't doing hold outs, lowering chemistry based on how severely you 'screw' the player out of money seems reasonable.
 
blln4lyf
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Originally posted by Sik Wit It
Originally posted by blln4lyf

Originally posted by David Stern


Originally posted by Bort



LOL, no winning I guess?

Current system: doesn't work.
Original idea: too complicated somehow
New idea: not complicated enough?



Originally posted by ijg



tbh Catch, I'm a lot more bothered by the training requiring a PhD than the finances which are a once/season thing. That said, I think a lot of the angst is over the complexity. The salary cap is fine and the team promotions seem fine.

The drags are the deterioration and stadium maintenance which is just forcing people to do math for no reason and then the magnitude of the morale impact. So, I would suggest the following.

1) eliminate deterioration and refurbishment.
2) bump up morale impact of salary (Pro example) to 60% for bottom 25%, 75% for middle 50% (-25-75%) and 90% for top 25%. That makes it simpler to manage and less punitive.
3) Keep promotions and seasonal bonuses. Dump the permanent bonuses.

Those three things would reduce a ton of the complexity and I think still meet the goals of having a) $ mean something, b) a salary cap as an equalizer for recruiting, and c) make morale meaningful but not all consuming.


This post was a simple solution to fix the problems you had with the first suggestion. But hell I'd much rather have the first suggestion over this current change.


That's something I'd get behind as well.


bumpin this.
 
.spider.
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How about the team possessions just reduce the rate at which you lose energy and morale throughout the game.....No team possesions=like normal....lot of team possessions your dots stay pretty confident throughout the game...(lesser rate of lowering morale) and do the same w/ energy as well.
 
vinman
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Originally posted by PierreThomas
It might be a hint that this game is too much work when I get three text messages and two calls between 12pm and 1am about GLB and people rage quitting.

Your comparison to Madden fails on so many fronts it is even funny. This game owners are dealing with REAL people not cpu players. This game we can't trade with cpu's for trades that are lopsided as hell. In this game talking one person into signing is a full day's work and a team effort.

To be honest, I've cared less and less about this game over the past 5 seasons. It became so complicated that I couldn't handle all the duties and merged. It took all of three seasons with two of the most dedicated owners in the game to decide it was still too much work for two people and merge again. Now these changes come out and I'm tired of merging and having one or two teams that can compete is just not very much fun because everyone else has already quit.

I'm not rage quitting, way too much thought has gone into this to call it that but this will be my last season on GLB. I don't look forward to logging on, I haven't even had time to watch a game in two seasons and my time spent on GLB is dealing with managing players, VAs, AEQ, money and training players. I rarely get to post on the forums, chat it up with friends I've met through this game and watch games which are the reasons I started playing in the first place.

For many seasons I've warned that this game is getting too much like work and you guys continue to pile it on. You can justify the changes by saying this will only take a couple more hours in the offseason but you just don't get it. You've been adding a couple hours to the offseason for ten seasons now, you've been adding hours to the gameplanning for seasons. It isn't the one financial change or training change that is making people mad, it is the piling on of constant bullshit that has everyone pissed. I literally spend a couple hours a day on the game and in the past spent about 12 hours a day on the game and I DON'T EVEN KNOW ALL THE RULES. Half the VAs don't work, half the SAs don't work, the sim still has simple glitches that haven't been fixed, there is still a large amount of randomness between like players and there is so much that can be improved on.

However, in the name of parity you have added VAs, added AEQ, revamped training, added tagging, added custom depth charts, added defensive playmaker, added progressions and what has it gotten you? A declining player base, massive team mergers and aliances, blow out games, gutted teams, gutted leagues, financial unbalance and unhappy ever shrinking customer base.



100% agree
 
Plankton
OPL4Lyfe
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Originally posted by jbleich
How about the team possessions just reduce the rate at which you lose energy and morale throughout the game.....No team possesions=like normal....lot of team possessions your dots stay pretty confident throughout the game...(lesser rate of lowering morale) and do the same w/ energy as well.


In other words, lower stamina and confidence rather than energy and morale.
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by Lazer Noble
Originally posted by Sarg01

So it sounds like we have an opportunity to forge consensus around the original plan, but with morale bonuses instead of penalties. I know the numbers need tweaking, but it's a good chance for everyone to get what they want.


yes the 35-40 people who've posted itt a consensus makes


Yeah, I thought that was ridiculous as well.

A ton of people have logged off for the night, how anyone could think that the few people still posting here makes up the majority, I just can't understand.
 
Satans_Pimp
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Originally posted by REDAZZ
You will piss people off. But make it the ones that don't want growth. Those that are narrow sighted. They don't want change because they are in a comfort zone with their cheats and mis-uses of the system. Insider trading between teams to load up one team to buy championships and out level a league for a cheap Gold trophy.

Why can't there be different levels of commitment between the leagues? Some that just want the basic settings to those that want some more control to those that want MAX experience. Can't a team grow through from one level into another? As the skill set of a team grows, let them progress through the ranks and complexities. Without starting over from scratch.


you wont be able to have team growth well at least with good players. if i am reading this right?
 
Sik Wit It
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Originally posted by Bort
Originally posted by David Stern

people just see a number on their player less than 100% and get turned off.


True, I learned that pretty early on.

I think one problem with going over 100 is that we don't really want to start adding even more bonuses to players. An extra 20 or 30 morale points is going to make players even faster, stronger, etc. To the point of being really silly.


What if instead of having that extra morale (past 100) having a direct effect on attributes, it just serves as "reserve" morale. So the morale gets subtracted as normal on any given roll, but having 100+ morale doesn't necessarily make you a better player.
 
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