Warrior General Games

Closing speed causes issues with overhead pathing, if it didn't - the outside run game would be completely dead as the speed boost to closing speed would make it impossible to get the edge. A FS with the same sprint/quick level could get to LOS strong side when running a roundabout route faster than a HB who took a direct pitch.

The boost is ungodly and when mixed with a penchant in users to go for sprint type builds and rely purely on pursuit it would be insane. Don't know if it's intentional, but without the change in pathing aggressiveness, there'd be problems.

~145 sprint for a 100 sprint safety.
~139 sprint for a 95 sprint safety.
~133 sprint for a 90 sprint safety.
~127 sprint for an 85 sprint safety.
~121 sprint for an 80 sprint safety.
~115 sprint for a 75 sprint safety.
~109 sprint for a 70 sprint safety.
~103 sprint for a 65 sprint safety.
~97 sprint for a 60 sprint safety. (This is the first guy slower than a 100 sprint HB going to the edge can ever be)
~91 sprint for a 55 sprint safety.
~85 sprint for a 50 sprint safety. (85 is a good number at being able to corral fast HBs anyhow, the positioning and the way defenders move give them an advantage to getting to the edge. Closing speed's ultra-over aggressive angles are the only thing actually saving outside running in the current sim.)
~79 sprint for a 45 sprint safety.
~73 sprint for a 40 sprint safety.
~67 sprint for a 35 sprint safety.
~61 sprint for a 30 sprint safety.
~55 sprint for a 25 sprint safety.
~49 sprint for a 20 sprint safety.
~43 sprint for a 15 sprint safety.
~37 sprint for a 10 sprint safety.


The bonus is to max running speed, which is 125+sprint value.

could you imagine the builds you could get away with if this skill didn't screw up pathing?

Originally posted by Raid

~37 sprint for a 10 sprint safety.

The bonus is to max running speed, which is 125+sprint value.



This is the part that people often forget. The base value.

Closing Speed's +20% on the base value means that it's 25 points of Sprinting just to begin with. The Duration maxes at 2.0 seconds, which is the only reason that long breakaways still happen. If it lasted longer, the FS would catch every HB.

Hence the need for high Balance on high Sprinting Closing Speed players.

Essentially it's a must have Gold SA.

Originally posted by Raid
Closing speed causes issues with overhead pathing, if it didn't - the outside run game would be completely dead as the speed boost to closing speed would make it impossible to get the edge.

I use to think this until I boosted my safeties to 90+ zone awareness. My safeties closing speed kicks in and helps them get to the outside to stop the run. It is damn near impossible to run outside on me when my safeties are playing zone.

Watch the SS on these play:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814892/549967

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814892/549996

Originally posted by Xars


Essentially it's a must have Gold SA.

This coupled with Monster Hit...which is what my defense is built around. Silver Closing Speed might be better because it doesn't cost as much but still fires constantly.

Originally posted by Cybertron
I use to think this until I boosted my safeties to 90+ zone awareness. My safeties closing speed kicks in and helps them get to the outside to stop the run. It is damn near impossible to run outside on me when my safeties are playing zone.

Watch the SS on these play:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814892/549967

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814892/549996

Give it time - the problem gets worse as players get faster, and look at games you play against non-cpus.

Here's a bunch of bad closing speed pursuit fail:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/433451


Closing speeds himself into the easiest block ever instead of trying to seal edge - not very conservative:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/435070
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/435259


Takes himself out of the play by diving into congestion instead of sealing edge:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/435318


It's there, you've just not hit the meat of it yet, and it's worse for man to man defenses.

Originally posted by Raid
Give it time - the problem gets worse as players get faster, and look at games you play against non-cpus.

Here's a bunch of bad closing speed pursuit fail:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/433451


Closing speeds himself into the easiest block ever instead of trying to seal edge - not very conservative:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/435070
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/435259


Takes himself out of the play by diving into congestion instead of sealing edge:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/814891/435318


It's there, you've just not hit the meat of it yet, and it's worse for man to man defenses.

This game was played before I pumped high zone awareness on my safeties. I'll keep an eye out for future games...but I think zone/man awareness is the key to having decent pathing. There seems to be big difference between say...75 zone and 90.

You are right though...sometimes they do take bad angles. I have just noticed that the higher the zone awareness, the less times they take bad angles.

We play Dallas Cowboys tomorrow in ladder, so I'll watch it closely.

Originally posted by Cybertron
I just showed that conservative works if you have high zone awareness. I watch many games and I have never seen my safeties take crazy angles when they have very high zone awareness and conservative pursuit tactics.

You say there is still bad pathing in the game I linked...was the safety in man or zone? Because I would expect his angles to be terrible when playing man, cause he hasn't invested anything in man awareness. Can you link any play where my safeties are in zone and took a bad angle?

Not really just talking about zone here as I mentioned before. Like I said earlier, when offensive players are held back it causes weird pathing problems. Instead of the conservative angle being taken by default, there are many times where it isn’t.

Again, might be a factor of multiple things. But it’s not man or zone awareness.

Originally posted by Cybertron
This game was played before I pumped high zone awareness on my safeties.

You made that big a difference in 1 days time? Those were from 1 day before the Sons of alderaan game you were posting examples from.


Here's your most recent game:


SS derping directly into blocker: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818647/567672

And again https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818647/567693

Again doing the blockers work for him: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818647/567877



It's particularly bad from the safety spot, this kind of behavior can be beneficial for LBs in general as they can shoot gaps and blow plays up in the backfield, but safeties just shoot down into traps or right into a blocker.

Ahh closing speed.

That’s another variable I didn’t factor in. But would closing speed override a players pursuit tactics?

Between high awareness and closing speed, maybe players are thinking they can get into gaps rather than take the extra angle ? I’m seeing that in the replays… just to no avail lol.

Originally posted by TyDavis315
Ahh closing speed.

That’s another variable I didn’t factor in. But would closing speed override a players pursuit tactics?

Between high awareness and closing speed, maybe players are thinking they can get into gaps rather than take the extra angle ? I’m seeing that in the replays… just to no avail lol.

Yep, it was a discussed bug a season or two ago, seems to be people ignored it and the meta is now letting elusives run wild.

I've just advised my players not to invest in it at the safety position, because just getting 75+ speed and a good pursuit will work well anyhow and won't cause these big gains.

Originally posted by Xars

Closing Speed's +20% on the base value means that it's 25 points of Sprinting just to begin with. The Duration maxes at 2.0 seconds, which is the only reason that long breakaways still happen. If it lasted longer, the FS would catch every HB.

You don't decelerate immediately to your original max speed upon it expiring, which is taxing on balance - but it also means you get more benefit for a second or two while you decelerate. It also causes more overpursuit upon it expiring and the player being unable to correct as well because of the penalty to balance. It's a massive double edged sword.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Maybe it is a tactic bug for aggressive pursuit? Are yours set to aggressive too?

I've done both and its been wonky in both. A 90 speed FS will expose this quick.

Originally posted by Raid
You don't decelerate immediately to your original max speed upon it expiring, which is taxing on balance - but it also means you get more benefit for a second or two while you decelerate. It also causes more overpursuit upon it expiring and the player being unable to correct as well because of the penalty to balance. It's a massive double edged sword.

Correct.

Gold SA Closing Speed is +20% to overall Speed (not Sprinting) AND +15 Conditioning. High Conditioning helps overall Speed; we know that from Conditioning testing.

So the reality is that Gold SA Closing Speed provides even more than a 20% overall Speed enhancement because it pumps Conditioning too. It doesn't wear off right away, but it does wear off.

Best example of a long play where Closing Speed fired on my S* FS Frodo: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818276/456588?player_id=339208

He catches a 4.91 WR (70 Sprinting). Frodo has 4.38 Speed. Catch is made at Tick 70 at the 40yd line and Frodo makes the tackle 52 yards later. He ends the play with 64 Energy, amazingly. Only 1 firing of CS too.

Originally posted by Raid
You made that big a difference in 1 days time? Those were from 1 day before the Sons of alderaan game you were posting examples from.

Here's your most recent game:

SS derping directly into blocker: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818647/567672

And again https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818647/567693

Again doing the blockers work for him: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/818647/567877

It's particularly bad from the safety spot, this kind of behavior can be beneficial for LBs in general as they can shoot gaps and blow plays up in the backfield, but safeties just shoot down into traps or right into a blocker.


Those are actually good angles he took. If he goes anymore inside, the HB goes around the edge. If he goes anymore outside, the HB goes inside and has a huge lane.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Those are actually good angles he took. If he goes anymore inside, the HB goes around the edge. If he goes anymore outside, the HB goes inside and has a huge lane.

He runs directly at the HB, it’s bad for 2 reasons.

If he runs around the blocker to the outside, even if the blocker still makes contact it will more than likely force the HB back inside where a LB or Lineman is likely to make the tackle. If he tries to run around to the inside, it prevents the blocking interaction from getting in the way of other players trying to go across from inside. By just running right at the blocker, he sets himself up to be an obstacle to other defenders and doesn’t prevent the back from getting to the edge.


Those are not good angles, elusive will punish that all day, you have to close off the outside lane or at least stay out of the way so someone else can.