Warrior General Games

I agree with Myrik that a modifier targeting LBs isn't the solution. Buffing is better than nerfing here. It all still comes back to passing arc. If QBs had tactics like other positions, then this could be fixed. There's a reason quite a few QBs aren't investing in Pass Power at all now. I can't believe how much SP I wasted on Tecmo Mahomes, just to throw more ints by pushing Power to 80+ during the last run.

I agree I think the main issue is passing Arc. I have gotten way too pissed off watching a pass that would be a 20yd throw get picked off by a linebacker sitting at 10yds. That shit just did not make sense. Never in the history of football has that shit happened. Looking into a passing arc would seem like the more ideal choice.

and my QB has 50 passing power and threw probably more INT than most, but my QB also has finished with completion percentage at 69% for two seasons.

Originally posted by dredgar
and my QB has 50 passing power and threw probably more INT than most, but my QB also has finished with completion percentage at 69% for two seasons.

Nice.

My QB's once they get passed Rookie all have had consistent completion % above 60 for a long time now (years) and I don't see them throw a plethora of Ints compared to their TD's. What are we considering too many Ints here by relation? I would like to see a QB SA based on Pass Pwr or QB Tactics added, but without screwing LBs/Zone in the process. I know the LB's using EotP pisses people off, but I take that as a game balance thing for Zone.

This was my previous QB as an example:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/318146

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
My QB's once they get passed Rookie all have had consistent completion % above 60 for a long time now (years) and I don't see them throw a plethora of Ints compared to their TD's. What are we considering too many Ints here by relation? I would like to see a QB SA based on Pass Pwr or QB Tactics added, but without screwing LBs/Zone in the process. I know the LB's using EotP pisses people off, but I take that as a game balance thing for Zone.

This was my previous QB:

https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/318146

he threw 40 in the second to last season. that is a shit ton of INT, you are talking about over 1 a game. I do agree I like that LB can get INT but it is insane the amount of INT my teams still throw when playing zone teams. Against zone teams, I bet I average 3 int a game. I feel it is specifically the LB getting INT on plays that just dont make sense that is most people's issues. I have watched throws that are going to a player 20yards downfield and a linebacker manages to jump and get it when he is standing 8-10 yards deep. A normal passing arc for that throw would be 15 feet in the air. There is no human that plays football that could even touch the ball. Passing power was suppose to help this but many are seeing it still is hurting more. That is a huge game issue. Diddley over here went 80 throwing power and still setting picks all day to linebackers. The way the devs made the game is not working clearly.

Remove the arc BS all together. Make it so weaker armed QBs do not just throw balls out of reach. Or make it so noodle armed QBs cannot throw a ball more than 20 yards downfield. Drastic yes, but make pass power important. It should be a critical skill for passing QBs.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar
You want to nerf LB's being able to use EotP, which is the Heart of Zone defense and what makes it work. Take that away and you break the defense. In a game balance standpoint it is not crazy that some Zone D plays might get high INT rates when Zone itself has flaws as you often mention with your Trips and off tackle arguments and such. Zone is a high risk high reward defense in this game, it has weaknesses that gives up chunks of yards and high completion % at times for the chance to create TO's or make big plays. Man has always and still is way more consistent in shutting down offenses.


No.

But I do want Zone to work more like it does in real life rather than completely as a computer game.

There are two major, but separate, issues:

Pass Power - lower pass power arcs over Zone better than high Pass Power. This needs to be fixed somehow. Higher Pass Power shouldn't be hurting QBs so much.

INT rate of jumping LBs.

These are unfortunately linked too much in the current environment. And that's a problem.

However, the INT rate with Zone is ridiculous given the current Completion rate against it. It's not in Balance.

Zone LBs can still continue to get INTs but 10% is INSANE. Don't even try to argue that's the right absolute level. A 10% INT rate is a negative 35 yard swing. That's a 3.5 yard adjustment PER ATTEMPT. To make up for it, you'd need a 10 YPA before INTs. That means a 71.4% completion rate on 14 yard catches. Virtually no passing plays have that. You'd need ALL passing plays to have that. Oh, and you want Sacks too?

So now we're talking about a 80-90% completion rate of 14 yard passes because we've got to have a 10-15% sack rate too???

Zone is supposed to have great blitzes (see Tiger plays where the LB gets a perfect Snap Reaction check simply from the play call at zero SP skill investment), Sacks and INTs, but then have weaknesses. Is that your stance? Fine - then have the correct weaknesses because currently it doesn't.

In real life, Zone is a SITUATIONAL defense. It's why the Man plays with Cover 1, Cover 2, Lurks, etc. ARE a Hybrid. But no NFL or College team have ever run 100% Zone. It's not done for a reason.

So yes, this is a game. It doesn't have to be real life. But the Sack/INT rewards don't come with the appropriate cost. They just don't. A 6% INT rate, down from 10%, would change the YPA by 2.1 YPA for Passing. A 6% INT rate is higher than Man. My Man CBs had a 5.1% INT rate with a 76 average Interception skill. My SS was at 3.4% with a 68 Interception skill.

Zone INTs higher than Man - fine. But when the Global YPA is 6.5-8.5 (with Sacks) before 10% INT rates, you've turned Zone into a 3-5 YPA Defense against the Passing game. Globally.

There's no way that 3-4 Cover 3 Tiger against 3WR TRIPS shouldn't get torched. You can't have one CB guarding 3 WRs, hoping the RILB can cover the shallow zone. The FS is playing midfield, so if the TE runs a fly (like TRIPS WR Posts), the FS can't slide over to the TRIPS side to help. How is one CB supposed to cover at least 2, if not 3, WRs?

So while the Comp% is 68%, the YPC is less than 10. Factor in 8% Sacks and your at a YPA of 6.23 (GLB2 Scout actual data) before the high INT rate? Come on.

The QB isn't throwing to wide open WRs. They can either fix that or fix something else. Either way, something needs to be fixed.

Originally posted by Myrik_Justiciar

I don't get why the "Zone needs to be nerfed" argument has to be brought up in new creative ways again and again. We spent years with Man being the only real viable meta defense (I easily ran over 60+ seasons of Man with various teams) and now we actually have choices, so much so that teams are running hybrid defenses on a regular basis. Look, honestly, I mean no offense here to anyone.. but in my opinion, I feel that suggestions like these are not meant to truly balance the game, but more like an emotional response to losing to a few good teams who had success using Zone that clouds one's analysis. I don't think Zone is a problem (many teams ran it without the success that a few of us had), if it was the end all defense then you wouldn't be seeing so many top coaches switching to Hybrid and use more plays in the book (which I think is what the Devs want). Even GE is switching to a Hybrid style and he's pretty much the Father of Zone.



The above wasn't emotional.

Zone radius has nothing to do with the LBs in general, it has to do with zone radius. I don’t understand how that would even be a nerf considering knocked loose is still alive and well. I believe that sir, is an emotional argument.

I’m sitting at 70 power on my current QB so we’ll see how many ints that translates to in vet

There should really be QB tactics. I don’t understand why the leader of the offense doesn’t have anything besides rolling out and scrambling. Expanded tactics would add such a great amount of variety to the game.

I mean, it does seem WAY easier for a LB with 40 INT to jump 15 feet in the air and snag a pass than the CB with 70 INT standing right in front of the receiver. Kinda seems bass ackwards.

Originally posted by Xars
No.

But I do want Zone to work more like it does in real life rather than completely as a computer game.

The flipside is that it is completely a computer game.

Originally posted by dredgar
he threw 40 in the second to last season.

Eh, 40 was a bad year I'll give you that, but the very next season it was about half that and buisness as usual.

Originally posted by dredgar
if you are talking about over 1 a game. I do agree I like that LB can get INT but it is insane the amount of INT my teams still throw when playing zone teams. Against zone teams, I bet I average 3 int a game. I feel it is specifically the LB getting INT on plays that just dont make sense that is most people's issues. I have watched throws that are going to a player 20yards downfield and a linebacker manages to jump and get it when he is standing 8-10 yards deep. A normal passing arc for that throw would be 15 feet in the air. There is no human that plays football that could even touch the ball. Passing power was suppose to help this but many are seeing it still is hurting more. That is a huge game issue. Diddley over here went 80 throwing power and still setting picks all day to linebackers. The way the devs made the game is not working clearly.

I get how it looks on screen but this isn't real life though, man, nor a realistic football sim, or even Madden for that matter. I've surmised a long time that things operate out of game balance and out of just how the code for the game works. We don't know how high the LB is really jumping because it's represented Tecmo Bowl style anyway. I don't think nerfing LB's or Zone is the issue, it's how Pass Power is coded to work. When they last boosted it, we saw a big hit on Ints that Zone was producing anyway. No one will ever beat Rob's HoF LB because of it. Just take a look at our LB from Lexington for example:

This was Lexington's Zone S*MLB. As you can see, his Ints where not as epic as everyone thinks for zone LBs: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/335276

If anything I'd like to see either a new SA based on Power, or a tactics option... but if there's something that let's the QB poof it over the middle then I'd think there should be downside that allows the Safety or DB a boon to picking it off for game balance.

Originally posted by Xars
The above wasn't emotional.


Sorry, I didn't mean to exactly imply you were, I was speaking in a broad sense.

This isn't real life, and I just don't agree that LB's are the problem that you think they are despite your data because of game balance. I think your (and others) issue is with how Pass Power works.

Once a long time ago I complained on these forums about how my great gameplan didn't mean shit because of TO's forced by my opponent...C-Dog looked at the other team and told me that they performed exactly how they were supposed to because they were built to generate TO's and it was a legitimate strategy in the game mechanics. I just don't understand why we'd break how these dots work (and a legitimate game strategy) just so guys can throw over the middle with little to no risk. I mean if we look at Dredgar's QB who has almost 70% completion rate and we take away him throwing a lot of Ints in the process, do you think that will unbalance the game?

I do think you're on something with Sack rate from Zone...I've felt that it's been a little low for awhile (in Vet at least).

Myrik, I have to agree with Xars. He showed you the numbers. Int rates are still just ridiculous high for zone on LB specifically. I think I would love to see more CB Int versus LB INT. I get some things can't be realistic but at least lets make the right position players be closer to football. In football yes Lb does make picks, but nothing like CB, FS, and SS do. He even showed how a small lower percentage of INT makes it better. Zone defense even in real life is known to be able to be torn apart by a good gameplan and QB. But its next to impossible now, I dont want a nerf to zone by any means but some how we need a balance. I would love for true hybrid defenses to be the best, but its not true in this game. I still prefer man defense but that is even my philosophy in real life. The zone is a situational play. Even the best DC uses it that way.

I do think some type of tactic would be more ideal on the QB to make a balance. Yea if you choose to throw more arc to get over LB then I would for sure say CB/safeties should be able to make a better play on the ball on certain throws. But hell we have LB jumping massive throws and a CB in man that is standing in front of a WR can't deflect or INT a pass. I do want it noted I do not want a boost to man defense as mine has shown it still can keep most QB to under 50% or under.



But let's be honest a QB like BoDiddley with 80 pass power should be able to rifle in throws between LB in zone all fucking day. Sure they will suffer from some accuracy issues but pass power should have more impact on making tight throws. But it does not and anyone trying to say it does is an idiot. Pass power really does just hurt most of the time. I see some good throws because of it but most of the time you get bad ones too.

Originally posted by dredgar




But let's be honest a QB like BoDiddley with 80 pass power should be able to rifle in throws between LB in zone all fucking day. Sure they will suffer from some accuracy issues but pass power should have more impact on making tight throws. But it does not and anyone trying to say it does is an idiot. Pass power really does just hurt most of the time. I see some good throws because of it but most of the time you get bad ones too.

Couldn't agree more.

LB INT's are overpowered, though QB Completion %'s over the middle are also , just in general too high and too low to the outside.

I'm aware how zone works in real life, I'm just saying we should be discussing the game mechanics and game balance instead of making comparisons to it is all.

We've ran Zone on KY & Lex for a bit now and we are not getting high Int counts despite being built to for them...Whose LB's are getting insane amounts of Int currently in the game? These are the recent top Zone MLB in Vet (unless I missed some):

Gilwice: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/341524
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/341525

Lexington:https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/335276

Kentucky: https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/318201

Himalayas:https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/322278

Here is Rob's Zone S*MLB from before the Pass Power buff:
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/296297

To me it looks like the current generation have nowhere near Rob's numbers (proving that the Pass Power buff worked IMO)... But I digress, are their numbers too high despite that they are basically built to use EotP and get Ints? Do we cripple the build type because we want to reduce Int % rates despite the fact QB's are able to consistently have good completion % vs them? Despite the data presented I don't see how nerfing Zone MLB's/EotP to allow QB's hardly any risk and high completion % balances the game out, in my opinion. For that matter, zone CB's do not constantly sit in underneath coverage to benefit from EoTP and is in part why you don't see them do nearly as well as the MLB. In effect, what you wind up doing is you only nerf Zone and it's not like Trips and Big I are not already showing a weakness in Zone. Where is the line here, would you all only be happy with zone LB's getting single digit Int totals in 30 games despite being built for getting them?

Why not ask for QB Throwing Tactics? It's not like we didn't get the TTN SA already that reduces QB Int rates.