Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Merik
1% isn't uncommon from pure pass line's and S* QB, from a quick look around......

i wonder if it's yourself that's naive thinking it's because of quickness, currently i see no proof if it helps or not

Well let's go with what we know.

On 3rd Down a QB is going to hold the ball until his WRs get to/near the First Down marker. This is why Engage 8 works so well in 3rd and really long situations.

So getting to the First Down marker is important. Thinking otherwise leads to Sacks.

I've never said Sprinting has no value. I just believe Quickness is under-valued. I can't justify a 100/60 Quick/Sprinting build, but I can justify 81/80.

Originally posted by Xars
Well, my view may be skewed to that of the team rather than the player. My QB Belgarath in 2+ seasons at Vet has less than a 1% sack rate. Everyone knows my plays and the builds are open.

Sure, Belgaraths QB build (and my OLine) might be the driver of that low sack rate, but do you really believe that my WRs Quickness (and First Step powered by Quickness) skill values have nothing to do with it? I think that would be naive.

Your WR may have better stats with a change to lower Quickness/ higher Sprinting but that doesn't mean that the Offense is performing better.

Our QB's YPG increased by nearly 200 yards and he was sacked 23 times less as well that season, his sack rate that season was also just a hair above 1%.
My WR wasn't the only to change that season, we added an extra WR and generally moved back towards faster WR's. I think you're over-valuing how much of an effect quickness has on a WR's speed to his breaks.

Among the top 4 pass only teams in vet in season 12 (LZ Boys included) they all were right around 1% sacks per dropback...

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/98747
(17/2595) =0.66%

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/73103
(25/2333) =1.07%

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/84846
(30/2442) = 1.23%

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/62757
(29/2192) =1.32%

True, LZ had the lowest sack rate on their QB, but was also a single owner team, chemistry may, or may not have had an effect on the other 3 teams, and the difference is about 8 sacks over the course of a season. And that's your best season so far in Vet for sacks. In season 11 you were sitting at 0.95%. If you can consistently stay a statistically significant distance above the other QB's over the course of your veteran career you may have a point, but there are several other factors in place, and the jury is definitely out on this one. I have trouble believing that quickness is the secret sauce. I find my WR gets to his breaks faster with his current setup than he did with 80 quickness. However with the addition of depth to WR, it could also be because my Wr generally had more energy last season. So I can't totally claim it to be caused by sprinting.

It's no doubt that you have put together a strong passing roster and offense, however I remain unconvinced by quickness. If it is that you're right and I and others are wrong then you can continue to reap the rewards of the differences. The exchange of ideas and opinions is the whole purpose of these forums, and hopefully at the very least it stimulates thoughts and internal discussion among other agents.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Wow...we actually agree on something.

Even a GE is right twice a day.

Originally posted by Xars
How about getting off the LOS and getting to the cut allowing the QB to release the ball at Tick 29 vs. Tick 34? Which makes all the difference in the world when Unguided Missle is flying in on a Over Will. Plus since practically every WR should have First Step and high Snap Reaction, Quickness causes more WRs to get off the line on more plays.

You said this before and I've replied the same thing. All of LogZilla's WRs have Quickness above that level. All of them have Quickness greater than Sprinting. Go look at my first scrim against Bronx Bombers this S13 (may be on the S12 page). They blitzed every play of the game. No sacks.

Do you think that happens if your WRs can't get off the line?


I definitely think you overrate quickness a ton. I would absolutely never put quickness higher than sprinting as that is wasted value. Sure you get a small % more of First Step firing but that isn't nearly as worth more speed.

Originally posted by Xars
Well, my view may be skewed to that of the team rather than the player. My QB Belgarath in 2+ seasons at Vet has less than a 1% sack rate. Everyone knows my plays and the builds are open.

Sure, Belgaraths QB build (and my OLine) might be the driver of that low sack rate, but do you really believe that my WRs Quickness (and First Step powered by Quickness) skill values have nothing to do with it? I think that would be naive.

Your WR may have better stats with a change to lower Quickness/ higher Sprinting but that doesn't mean that the Offense is performing better.

I haven't really had a cohesive unit of WR's on my team for quite awhile. Green wasn't very good at 80/80. Which is why (for the team and for the sake of him wanting to have a better season) I asked MHS if he would respec. That was a turn around season that jumped Gannon's stats up tremendously. I would say the sack total is largely to do with both early chem of newer receivers and the heart levels on Belgareth compared to Gannon.

Originally posted by bhall43
I definitely think you overrate quickness a ton. I would absolutely never put quickness higher than sprinting as that is wasted value. Sure you get a small % more of First Step firing but that isn't nearly as worth more speed.

Well that's the issue.

If you allocate SP to Quickness/Sprinting in different amounts, what you'll see is that sometimes Quickness lowers 20yd Shuttle times and sometimes Sprinting does. So I don't think it's all one or the other.

How often do WRs run in a straight line? And how long is that straight line?

In S12, you can look at Stobie's GLB2Scout and see that SB TE Drive had a YPC average of 15.14 (SG TE Drive was 14.26). Since the ball is in the air while the WR is running, the release point trigger is somewhere between 9-12 yards is my guess.

So aren't we talking about a lot of 12 yard Sprints with a cut? Isn't that what the Passing game is?

Is 50 Quickness/90-100 Sprinting better than 81 Quickness/80 Sprinting? It's less SP which means that more SP can be invested in other skills. So are those other skills bringing value to the WR? If so, where and how?

WR Belgarion doesn't have virtually any Route Elusiveness (14) nor Head Fake to "get open". It's my belief that Quickness helps him get open AND gets him off the LOS AND powers First Step. All without having to invest in Route Elusiveness. It's my belief that his high Quickness is his "Head Fake".

My "test" of the Passing game was as follows:

I compared WR1 Speed and WR2 Speedster to WR Shifty. WR1 is always WR1. WR2 is always WR2. WR1 is very close to WR2 in build (but not identical). Shifty subs for both. Meaning that Shifty plays a "blend" of WR1&WR2. So if WR1 is intrinsically better than WR2, then WR1 should have the best stats, Shifty in the middle and WR2 last. Or is WR2 is intrinsically better than WR1, then the order should be WR2-Shifty-WR1.

My Conclusion: What I found pre-Vet was that Shifty was outperforming BOTH WR1 and WR2. As a result, the issue was build differences. (and not Route or coverage differences.)

I did a small scale regression matrix and found that "Route Elusiveness" was a NEGATIVE contributor to performance. Essentially, RE is too expensive for it's value. It may "do something" but the "opportunity cost" of the investment is overwhelming.

Build Changes as a result: So I stopped investing in RE and maximized my investment in RT, Quickness and Sprinting as they had positive modifiers.

So it's perfectly acceptable that you all (most) disagree with me. What I've done is use data-based analysis and deductive reasoning to form my opinions. I hear some of that from some of you, but I don't hear a crescendo of data and reasoning behind most of your thoughts. (On the WR build specifically. Obviously, we've discussed sack data.) I hear a lot of supposition.

To each his own though.

I don't think route elusiveness or route running holds any value in the plays that we run currently. So that I can agree that quickness is helpful. But so is sprinting and your receiving caps + SA's.

I really don't think the combine stats are much more than cool numbers to look at also fwiw.

One thing worth mentioning is the physics of changing direction seem to work differently in GLB. In real life, if you're sprinting one direction, stop, and start sprinting the opposite direction..you lose all that momentum when you switch. In GLB, I see players all the time make that switch while maintaining some (or a lot) of the momentum.

That fact leads to players running at full speed a decent % of the time, from what I can tell. At least a lot more than you'd expect based on thinking about it from the perspective of "how often are they sprinting 20/40/whatever yards in a straight line?"

I really doubt regressions on this type of stuff would be meaningful. Way too many moving parts to draw conclusions.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
Our QB's YPG increased by nearly 200 yards and he was sacked 23 times less as well that season, his sack rate that season was also just a hair above 1%.
My WR wasn't the only to change that season, we added an extra WR and generally moved back towards faster WR's. I think you're over-valuing how much of an effect quickness has on a WR's speed to his breaks.


Just a question: Didn't the Offense bhall ran change too in S12?

A big difference could be the play calling.

With my team that has been pretty consistent over the past few seasons.

Originally posted by Spastic_Cowboy
One thing worth mentioning is the physics of changing direction seem to work differently in GLB. In real life, if you're sprinting one direction, stop, and start sprinting the opposite direction..you lose all that momentum when you switch. In GLB, I see players all the time make that switch while maintaining some (or a lot) of the momentum.

That fact leads to players running at full speed a decent % of the time, from what I can tell. At least a lot more than you'd expect based on thinking about it from the perspective of "how often are they sprinting 20/40/whatever yards in a straight line?"

I really doubt regressions on this type of stuff would be meaningful. Way too many moving parts to draw conclusions.

That is called quickness. Quickness and footwork are responsible for maintaining speed while turning/changing direction. Try giving a WR 100 sprint and 20 quickness and see how much speed he maintains while he cuts on his routes.

The question isn't whether to have Quickness at all, but at what point it makes sense to stop it. 20 is obviously not the right answer.

75/90 quick/sprint would be solid. I am making a fast WR. 75 quick, 89 sprint, 74 route tech, 76 route elu, 68 snap, 55 balance with Gold Catch in Stride, Head Fake and Silver First Step. He only has 65 Rec Hands though. I am hoping he can get open quick and catch in stride will fire.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
75/90 quick/sprint would be solid. I am making a fast WR. 75 quick, 89 sprint, 74 route tech, 76 route elu, 68 snap, 55 balance with Gold Catch in Stride, Head Fake and Silver First Step. He only has 65 Rec Hands though. I am hoping he can get open quick and catch in stride will fire.

Like this?

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/200210/1854115

Originally posted by Dee.
Like this?

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/200210/1854115

That looks like Starscream in practice.

Originally posted by Xars
Just a question: Didn't the Offense bhall ran change too in S12?

A big difference could be the play calling.

With my team that has been pretty consistent over the past few seasons.



If you look over all the 3 WR plays from S12 you will see that Juice is mostly lost in production because Barry Allen, Sweet Swine, and Marl Kalone take almost everything. And he played strictly WR3 like Belgarion.

The difference as far as I can tell is that your other WR's are all built similarly. In my offense running the same plays, Belgarion would get lost because the 100 speed guys would be taking everything from him.