Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TxSteve
Just looking at 1 Air Raid game (going to look at another next) - yes this is a small sample size

vs the Tigers:

Cleveland: 40/62 (64.5% Completion)
He was hurried 5 times. On those 5 Hurries:
4/5 (80%) for 35 yards and 1 TD


Tim Tebow (Tigers QB): 38/69 (55.1% completion)
He was hurried 11 times. On those 11 hurries:
7/11 (63.6%) for 100 yards
(the other 4 were all drops)

In that game at least (lol sample size) - both QB's performed better when hurried. I'm to go look at the next game to see if this holds up.


I think this may be the real problem - QB's completing a higher % of passes when hurried than when not hurried. I have thought this for a long time as it seems that in most cases, especially third downs, hurries seem to hurt the defense more than help it.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Galithor (I do not have a clue what the answer is to this)

What would you guess is the completion % difference between hurried...and unhurried passes from a good QB?



No idea. I've not looked into hurries that closely. My assumption would be that QBs with solid Consistency investment and some pocket awareness/OTR investment are probably better at it though.

When you're talking about completion % from hurries, you need to account for the fact that hurries are by and large the result of blitzing. Single coverage, especially when it's on WR3 by a FS or the TE by a SS is pretty trivial to beat at a very high %. Safeties just typically aren't quite the M2M beasts that CBs are on the outside WRs.

Forcing the QB to dump off to the TE before he reaches the depth of the Strong Safety is one of the surest ways to ensure the opponent has a big game at TE. Blitzes cause that to happen the most.

We blitzed Yukiko a whoooole bunch against Harrisonburg. Look at who he targeted the most. It wasn't the outside receivers covered by the new M2M specialists Air Raid's added at CB. It was Cobb at WR3, covered by FS's built to do multiple jobs, not just ace M2M. It was also moreso to the TEs, covered by SS's built even more to do stuff other than just M2M cover, and at the disadvantage of lining up 8-10 yards off the guy they're covering. Hurries in particular are encouraging the QB to hit the TE before the SS can even hope to make a play on defense.

Harrisonburg ran a good amount of Middle Overload against us, and got a ton of pressure with it. They also left WR3 wide open for a bunch of high % plays too in doing so.

So I guess my point is how you get the hurry matters. If you can get hurries with just your front 4, and leaving 7 in coverage, you're going to have a ton more success than if you need to blitz 6 to get that hurry.

I hear what you're saying and I understand what you're saying.

At the same time though - if hurries essentially give a QB "platinum" quick read....causing a complete break down in the defense because routes are broken off - then that is a problem and is surely not working as intended.

If hurries are leading to better than normal completion percentages - then it would appear to me that either hurries need to have a greater impact on pass quality / accuracy --- or QB movement needs to have a greater impact on pass quality / accuracy -- or both.


Your explanation of what is happening makes perfect logical sense. I just don't think that can be how it is intended to work.


Other possibilities - the defense isn't working right / the SS needs to be closer to the line / the FS needs to be closer to WR3

something is off though.

Originally posted by Galithor
No idea. I've not looked into hurries that closely. My assumption would be that QBs with solid Consistency investment and some pocket awareness/OTR investment are probably better at it though.

wasn't trying to trick you -- I typed my question to you -- then realized how easy it would be to go figure it myself - then tried to edit so it didn't seem like I was trying to have some kind of gotcha moment.

Originally posted by Galithor
So I guess my point is how you get the hurry matters. If you can get hurries with just your front 4, and leaving 7 in coverage, you're going to have a ton more success than if you need to blitz 6 to get that hurry.

Valid point, but still not relevant to the topic. It's not like when QBs drop back, they are expecting a hurry 5 seconds ahead of time. I mean yeah sometimes they see it coming, but mostly it's a sudden realization QBs have while scanning the field that they are too close to getting tackled and that they should throw it somewhere. Many many times, QBs just intentionally throw it out of bounce or make inaccurate throws where WRs can't get it, or defenders can pick off. Of course, single coverage results in higher pass completion and blitzing often force CBs/safeties single coverage assignments. So, if and when QBs make accurate throws, there's a better chance for a completion. It is my question that why do QBs make such accurate throws when hurried?

I get that the thinking is hurries should impact plays more, but I'm saying that the incidental impact of hurries is outweighing it's direct impact. Forcing throws to TEs before they reach SS depth on plays where they're the first or second read is providing an overwhelmingly positive situational advantage to outweigh any negative caused to the throw quality by the hurry.

I think a breakdown of how hurries look when caused by no blitz, vs blitz hurries would be enlightening. Getting exta defenders in the secondary is far more important to shutting down a pass attack than many folks still care to admit.

I can go back through Air Raid's history and point out teams that covered heavily with 7-8 defenders providing us more trouble on offense than teams that blitzed at probably a 2 to 1 ratio or greater. There's some teams that can get really solid pressure with just their front four even against my all pass blocking offensive line. They probably get murdered by Hawaii and Storm Taurus because of it, but they're built to give us problems for sure.

(LOL real NFL live football below)

I was just curious what this looks like in the real world -- again Galithor has some good points about how you got the hurry...even I could get some NFL completions if a D blitzed everyone they had and all I had to do was throw the ball as high and far as I could before getting killed...)

source: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/22/sig-stats-snapshot-passing-under-pressure/

NFL stat discussions call it "pressure" rather than hurries
I guess these are 2011 or 2012 stats.

Accuracy% - no pressure: 74.3%.....with pressure: 61%

Comp % - no pressure: 64.7.....with pressure: 46.9%

Yards per attempt - no: 7.4.....with 5.9

depth of target - no: 8.3...with 8.8 (not sure I know what this one means)

INT Rate: no pressure: 2.0%.....with pressure: 3.8%

throwaway .9 to 9.2 (which doesn't matter here)

NFL passer rating: 93.1 to 59.8

I think you'd need a script to run non-blitz hurry completion %s....but to really have any validity - you need to compare those completion %s to the not hurried completion rate of that specific QB in that specific game. Too much data to look at with a script -- and I don't even know if a script could do that.



Would be a heck of a lot easier for Corndog to take a look at it and see if it is working as intended -- how severe the penalty to accuracy and quality is -- if there even is one -- if the code is accidentally giving a bonus instead of a penalty -- etc.

Originally posted by Sean1995
Valid point, but still not relevant to the topic. It's not like when QBs drop back, they are expecting a hurry 5 seconds ahead of time. I mean yeah sometimes they see it coming, but mostly it's a sudden realization QBs have while scanning the field that they are too close to getting tackled and that they should throw it somewhere. Many many times, QBs just intentionally throw it out of bounce or make inaccurate throws where WRs can't get it, or defenders can pick off. Of course, single coverage results in higher pass completion and blitzing often force CBs/safeties single coverage assignments. So, if and when QBs make accurate throws, there's a better chance for a completion. It is my question that why do QBs make such accurate throws when hurried?

Sean, I appreciate what you're saying, but GLB2 isn't coded for throw aways. If I'm going to have to sit here and watch a 20 hurry game add 10 "sail it over the WR's head" type plays, I'm going to quit GLB2. Completion % is low enough as it is generally. The #1 QB in the game last season threw for 47.7% completions. And we're going to sit here and complain about passing being too effective in some aspect of the game?

If you want to add more wildly off target throws by hurried Superstar QBs, then I want something back in return. Make pump fakes and head fakes much stronger so I get more chances at wide open receptions where my guys can actually use their Catch In Stride investments or something. Shave down the wide open drop rate, etc.

Originally posted by TxSteve
(LOL real NFL live football below)

I was just curious what this looks like in the real world -- again Galithor has some good points about how you got the hurry...even I could get some NFL completions if a D blitzed everyone they had and all I had to do was throw the ball as high and far as I could before getting killed...)

source: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/22/sig-stats-snapshot-passing-under-pressure/

NFL stat discussions call it "pressure" rather than hurries
I guess these are 2011 or 2012 stats.

Accuracy% - no pressure: 74.3%.....with pressure: 61%

Comp % - no pressure: 64.7.....with pressure: 46.9%

Yards per attempt - no: 7.4.....with 5.9

depth of target - no: 8.3...with 8.8 (not sure I know what this one means)

INT Rate: no pressure: 2.0%.....with pressure: 3.8%

throwaway .9 to 9.2 (which doesn't matter here)

NFL passer rating: 93.1 to 59.8

Very nice stat! I also tried to find one myself and couldn't.. Anyway, INT Rate almost doubles, pass quality and accuracy decrease significantly, and pass rating drops all the way down to sub-60. We really need some change on the impact hurries have on plays.

Originally posted by Galithor
Sean, I appreciate what you're saying, but GLB2 isn't coded for throw aways. If I'm going to have to sit here and watch a 20 hurry game add 10 "sail it over the WR's head" type plays, I'm going to quit GLB2. Completion % is low enough as it is generally. The #1 QB in the game last season threw for 47.7% completions. And we're going to sit here and complain about passing being too effective in some aspect of the game?

If you want to add more wildly off target throws by hurried Superstar QBs, then I want something back in return. Make pump fakes and head fakes much stronger so I get more chances at wide open receptions where my guys can actually use their Catch In Stride investments or something. Shave down the wide open drop rate, etc.

I feel terribly bad that I have to say this to you, but that also has to do with build issues... I know right

But let me elaborate. My S* WR guy had a good rookie campaign, catching 159 times while targeted 259 times (61.3% completion) and he dropped 35 times (13.5%). I am sure his drop number will go down further as I continue to work on his catching abilities/vertical/diving/consistency and our QB improving his pass tech. He will be built to catch anyway he can and what I have seen so far from him isn't bad at all. I think any catching WRs/TEs must have 90+ rec hands/60+ CIT with silver prime time to catch reliably. People just go too crazy about speed and ignore the hell out of catching rolls.

Also, while the completion percentage is below that of NFL QB, but the yard per attempts is right on track(I think), so I am not going to say passing offense is ineffective.

Originally posted by Galithor
Sean, I appreciate what you're saying, but GLB2 isn't coded for throw aways. If I'm going to have to sit here and watch a 20 hurry game add 10 "sail it over the WR's head" type plays, I'm going to quit GLB2. Completion % is low enough as it is generally. The #1 QB in the game last season threw for 47.7% completions. And we're going to sit here and complain about passing being too effective in some aspect of the game?

If you want to add more wildly off target throws by hurried Superstar QBs, then I want something back in return. Make pump fakes and head fakes much stronger so I get more chances at wide open receptions where my guys can actually use their Catch In Stride investments or something. Shave down the wide open drop rate, etc.

You're being awfully dramatic.

We're simply discussing "do hurries actually do anything" -- incredibly limited data indicates 'no'.

No one has said that hurries should result in 50% absolutely uncatchable balls.

Beyond that - it looks like in Season 5 Cleveland was hurried 6.8 times per game (including scrims). Looking at only games that count - 5.7 hurries per game.

Cleveland was hurried in the double digits 9 times out of 43 games last season.

Sean, I'll consent to the need for hurries impacting passes more once we've gotten something in return.

It's not passing heavy teams and schemes dominating the game right now. If we're going to absolutely nerf passing in some way, there needs to be at least an equivalent buff elsewhere. Otherwise, this idea is a non-starter.