Warrior General Games

You bring up some good points about blitzes with CBs playing flat zones, but there are ways around that issue.

Yeah, that QB not having time thing? They and the receivers get better at that faster than zone defenders get at reacting to passes that get increasingly faster with more passing power. The engage 8 thing probably will stop being effective against good passing teams as soon as next season for doge.

Originally posted by Galithor
Yeah, that QB not having time thing? They and the receivers get better at that faster than zone defenders get at reacting to passes that get increasingly faster with more passing power. The engage 8 thing probably will stop being effective against good passing teams as soon as next season for doge.

Yeah, I've been expecting it to stop working any time now, and won't be surprised when it does.

I think the major thing is someone needs to stick with it through vet so we can see end game zone defense. Not only will this allow cdog to make changes with tons of data but we can actually see the end game zone defense. For all we know zone maybe something that doesn't manifest till your about done with builds or maybe even till someone finds the build that turns zone into an unstoppable juggernaut. More likely zone just needs awareness tweaks to be in a good place.

So your saying that a 3-4 Zone D with non boosters and a gold home town hero SA won't work? Well then what am I gonna do with all the flex I just bought?

So now being serious, Galithor... Since I'm paying for the whole team and I don't want to waste flex. With only a little boosting, your saying there is no chance to be successful with zone D? The Zones for 3-4 look a bit better than 4-3

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
I think the major thing is someone needs to stick with it through vet so we can see end game zone defense. Not only will this allow cdog to make changes with tons of data but we can actually see the end game zone defense. For all we know zone maybe something that doesn't manifest till your about done with builds or maybe even till someone finds the build that turns zone into an unstoppable juggernaut. More likely zone just needs awareness tweaks to be in a good place.

How, exactly, would you salvage the coverage from what I linked in the OP? The only real solution I see is for the topside CB to have sim capability of releasing from his zone to get depth as it becomes apparent there's no threat to that far topside zone. Heck, the HB and TE are wide open too underneath anyhow as well. CB2 is standing around the bottom of the field playing with himself irrelevantly.

What CB1/2 are doing is the primary issue with zones. Both of these players should be drifting in or deep based on what's happening instead of sitting in the middle of their static and uncontested zones pointlessly. The HB ought to have CB2 in his hip pocket the moment WR2 goes in and becomes the responsibility of the LOLB. CB2 should be hanging out on the inside edge of his zone that whole time.

If there were some way for Corndog to build some logic that had the Zone defender magnetized to the closest receiver to their zone, and drifting along the edge of the zone magnetically to that receiver until that receiver enters their zone or the pass is thrown, it'd be much better. It'd also be cool if the zones could stretch as needed when stuff happens like the LOLB taking that WR2 crossing route inside. CB2's zone should automatically stretch horizontally to encompass at least half the distance between CB2 and LOLB's current position dynamically up to the point it could reach the LOLBs original zone's center position. It should also stretch vertically as a Safety slides away from being over the top. If you had zone defenders sliding to the most threatened edge of dynamically stretching zone bubbles, zones would be a hell of alot better. But that's probably a beast to code.

Dynamically adjusting zone bubbles actively during an ongoing play is probably too much to ask. But "magnetizing" an uncontested zone defender to the most threatened edge of the current static zone bubbles based on the closest potential receiver should be doable. Obviously, zone awareness should dictate how often or well they recalculate where to position against potential threats. Right now, guys with good zone awareness absolutely do break on the throw really well. They're just so hopelessly out of position beforehand, it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by underdog13
So now being serious, Galithor... Since I'm paying for the whole team and I don't want to waste flex. With only a little boosting, your saying there is no chance to be successful with zone D?

I wouldn't be the guy trying to test it out. It's proven you can effectively run a solid pass defense with Man Base/Cover 2 Man so long as your players are well built.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
I will be running %100 zone defense and it will be one of the best around...mark it down. It will be built in an unusual way which you will understand once you see it in action. Let's just say, any offense that plays against the Imperial Forces better tighten up that chin strap and have a ton of heart. Vader, Jabba and the Stormtroopers will be laying the wood.

Xavori...is that you?

I hope this becomes a project for CDog in the [not too distant] future, because when Zone does eventually work (And it will, won't it?), it's going to give us much more flexibility as DCs that will also require a tailored build type, so more building interest for everyone.

Cover 2 Sink is an oddly overused zone play by teams trying to run zone.

CB1 and CB2 basically take themselves out of the play besides a few niche routes, and you're left with 4 pass rushers and 5 people in zones.

Originally posted by Makntak
I hope this becomes a project for CDog in the [not too distant] future, because when Zone does eventually work (And it will, won't it?), it's going to give us much more flexibility as DCs that will also require a tailored build type, so more building interest for everyone.

Zone does work, you just have to look at the meta and what teams are doing and call plays that counter those.

Cover 2 gets destroyed by corner routes which are still popular routes because of last season. "Flat" zones also tend to suck outside of a few niche purposes. Playing safe with more guys over the top and forcing teams to make a bunch of short passes rather than a few big passes also seems to be generally more effective than just having everyone in underneath zones.

You also can't look at it entirely from a stopping the pass standpoint. Zone coverage reacts to rushing plays a lot differently than man plays.

Originally posted by Corndog
Zone does work, you just have to look at the meta and what teams are doing and call plays that counter those.

Cover 2 gets destroyed by corner routes which are still popular routes because of last season. "Flat" zones also tend to suck outside of a few niche purposes. Playing safe with more guys over the top and forcing teams to make a bunch of short passes rather than a few big passes also seems to be generally more effective than just having everyone in underneath zones.

You also can't look at it entirely from a stopping the pass standpoint. Zone coverage reacts to rushing plays a lot differently than man plays.

Don't you try to make zone sound better I just retired all my zone d rookies and made them man! lol

Originally posted by underdog13
Don't you try to make zone sound better I just retired all my zone d rookies and made them man! lol

I'm just saying that it can work.

The issue with zone is that man coverage is too good. Real man defenders usually aren't actually capable of just sticking to every receiver like glue every play. Man and Zone are supposed to have different strengths and weaknesses. The problem lies that when man coverage does have weaknesses, passing becomes "unstoppable" because running Cover 0 every play doesn't work.

Then the "weaknesses" of man just have to be that receivers can catch the ball while covered, or even double covered, because blowing coverage against certain routes is just unacceptable. Which then exacerbates the issues with zone, not only does it have "holes" that are natural and happen in real life, the game is balanced around defenders being covered 100% of the time, so even when it "works", it still only works as well as man coverage.

I guess an artificial boost to deflection ability while in zone coverage would "fix" it in that when receivers are actually covered, it's a lot more effective than when they are covered by a man defender.