Warrior General Games

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/25563

Spin at silver, with 60 elusive (for this whole season). He spins rarely, but when he does it doesn't seem to cause fumbles. It hasn't been a major factor in his success.

So the general consensus here seems to be that Juke>Spin as far as active SAs for elusive builds go?

And that it is possible spin is broken -- and that the carry grip penalty on spin may not be working

Originally posted by TxSteve
And that it is possible spin is broken -- and that the carry grip penalty on spin may not be working

It's a small window for the grip penalty to apply on an infrequently firing SA. It's probably really hard to tell if it's having an impact outside 1-2 fumbles a season.

It's kinda like Inspire Fear for punters. Sure -15 carry grip to the returner sounds cool, but how often do you hit the returner within the first 2 seconds of the return? If you're within the "hit him within 1 second" that's required for bronze to have any effect, he's probably fair catching it anyhow. So there's probably a less than 1 second window where Inspire Fear even legitimately has a chance to impact a play at Gold investment.

I don't understand why people keep mentioning their elusive running at 60 like that is a high skill in this game. lol.

None of you seem to have gold spin (which is nearly a 100% boost in activation chance at 25% to 40% max) and none of you seem to have elusive running or footwork over 80 which for every other position and every other SA seems to be considered a "high" attribute when we are talking about SA activation.

This sounds like DE's with 60 technique rush and silver spin cycle going "wtf I only spin like once every game and half the time i dont get a sack anyway, shit is rigged shitty SA"

It just sounds pretty premature to me when you all sound like you have below the bar skills for what you are trying to accomplish. 60 is not a high value in this game, you can get 60 in something in sophomore, rofl.

Originally posted by Badhands
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/25563

Spin at silver, with 60 elusive (for this whole season). He spins rarely, but when he does it doesn't seem to cause fumbles. It hasn't been a major factor in his success.

I just watched your last league game and in your first 5 rushes you used spin 3 times and got a TD as a direct result of a spin in the backfield.

Are you guys even watching your own games before you complain? lol

Edit: I gave up halfway when you used spin about half the time you rushed (5/10) and maybe half of those times was it effective (again, one of those being a direct result TD when you spin'd around an SS in the backfield)

There is definitely some confirmation bias or something going on here. Even with what I consider subpar attributes you guys are getting pretty decent return out of Spin from your most recent game, I didn't even cherrypick.

And especially in badhands case, 70% of the time he is running up the middle and getting hit 3-4 yads past the LoS right after Mr. Reliable fires and Surge fires him into a linebacker. Most of the time he doesn't even get a chance to spin when the play develops that way.

Come on guys, use some context lol. Spin is obviously better when you have more field space to take advantage of. If you don't run a lot of pitches or outside runs you aren't going to get as much mileage out of spin as you would for example Juke which takes less actual field-space to execute (its more about freezing the defender while spin is more about moving you past)

My real question is about the grip penalty. Particularly in rookie / sophomore - I would expect there to be a serious risk of fumbling (with carry grip in the 5-20 range when penalized) - yet I've never seen a spin fumble (except that ones shown earlier in this thread that were called 'incompletions'

Originally posted by TxSteve
My real question is about the grip penalty. Particularly in rookie / sophomore - I would expect there to be a serious risk of fumbling (with carry grip in the 5-20 range when penalized) - yet I've never seen a spin fumble (except that ones shown earlier in this thread that were called 'incompletions'

I think thats the interesting question.

I dont care if my HB jukes or spins out of bounds. I switched spin for juke after the first season, because it basically never fired. I now know, that I just didnt had the skills to make it fire. Still I think juke fires more often than spin, while spin gives you more movement. The grip penalty would prevent me from picking spin again, BUT if this grip penalty isnt existing, it would be worth a try. This leads us back to the original question: Spin = Grip penalty = more fumbles OR No grip penalty?

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/8826

Since this isn't my build I won't say specifics but he has mediocre investments in Elusive/Footwork and has invested in Spin. I don't recall Spin leading to a ton of fumbles. I do remember plays like these:

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78191/1648572
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/88048/1589295

If I really wanted to look I could probably find several plays a game where Spin fired and led to more yardage. Every few games I see it lead to a huge gain and/or a TD.

It's -8 carry grip at gold and -12 carry grip at silver, the big keyword though being while active. You aren't getting hit every time you are spinning, you aren't fumbling every time you get hit while you spin, and you aren't losing possession every time you fumble.

This is the same discussion I've been having repeatedly with QB's who think it's worthwhile to invest to not fumble when you get sacked versus investing in being a better passer in general.

How many times are you rushing a game compared to how many times you are fumbling?

I'm going to go ahead and use Badhands HB as the example here. Last season he rushed 412 times and fumbled 6 times, 1 of which he lost. For every 68 times he touched the ball, he fumbles. If you are trying to maximize your SP value, is it better to increase the thing you are doing 68 times or increase the thing you are doing once?

Just like QB's, many of you will try to counter with "But that extra fumble can be the difference between winning and losing!". This is bias. It is easy to see you fumbled in a game where you lost by one touchdown or one field goal or whatever and say "Obviously the reason we lost is because I fumbled. If I didn't fumble we might have won". It is much more difficult yet to say "I ran for 4 YPC. If I ran for 5 YPC we might have won the game." Our brains just don't work that way. It is hard to associate that kind of a consistent event with no direct result to point to with actually winning.

Even if Spin made you fumble once per game (it wouldn't and this is an extreme example as we are increasing his fumble rate by over 500%), if you got 1 extra YPC out of it - it's still arguably worth it. Even fumbling that much Bandhands would be running 11 times every fumble, most of which you don't even lose possession on regardless.

You have to weigh your downsides in the grand scheme of what you do most and how that effects you. Try not to look at a singular event like one fumble, or one 3rd down failure, or one 80 yard spin TD, and try to get better most often at the thing you do the most of.

Dude.

My question is simply: is the carry grip penalty working...or is it not being applied.

Yes it would obviously be more impactful at rookie and probably soph.

Probably much like you -- I've watched literally hundreds of games in the first 5 seasons here.

I do not recall seeing a 'spin' fumble. That makes me wonder. The fumbles in this thread that occurred during a spin somehow came off as "incomplete" - based on limited data (my own perception and my own watching of games) - I'm doubtful that the carry grip penalty is being applied.

Of course it wouldn't cause a fumble every time...but especially at bronze - that penalty should be significant...and we should be seeing them more

First of all I wasn't even talking about your post, so I dunno why you are responding with attitude. Did you read Evil Sports Agent's post right after yours? Maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Second, did you even try before you asked this question?

Originally posted by TxSteve

My question is simply: is the carry grip penalty working...or is it not being applied.


http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/88668/1616504?player_id=25563

It actually took me 5 minutes to find this.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Of course it wouldn't cause a fumble every time...but especially at bronze - that penalty should be significant...and we should be seeing them more

What makes you think a -10 carry grip penalty is significant? What do you think your chance to fumble is on any given tackle? 5% (I'm pretty sure this is also an exaggeration)? Lets say you have 50 carry grip and that gets reduced to 40 for a 20% decrease in carry grip ability. Translate that to 5% chance to fumble? Congrats, now you might fumble 6% of the time.

Come on people. Use your brain. 20% is not a huge impact when you are talking about a low probability event. This is grade school stuff. This isn't even accounting for the likely fact that carry grip is not the only factor in the fumble formula, meaning a straight reduction to carry grip has even less of an effect than I am explaining.

Not trying to sound like a jerk here, Laggo, so don't take this the wrong way. You have come in here with a lot of talk about how SURE you are that spin works and is this amazing SA. The problem with that is you have yet to prove the points you are trying to make. I have not seen any replays from you of one dot that has the skills to spin on a regular basis and does so with a lot of success.

I could show you 10x the replays of spin firing at a bad time where it does nothing for the HB.

FFS You're BOTH pretty!

You 2 are bickering about 2 different things. TxSteve is talking about whether the SA is functionally working correctly (as in even if you DO fumble, it's calling them incomplete-not a fumble (or just not fumbling to begin with)) and Laggo is arguing the penalty doesn't make much of a difference in the end result.

I decided to go ahead and do some of the work for you, Laggo. These replays come from a game in which Hub City scored 147 points against a CPU team so I would expect there are a lot of examples of spin firing and being successful against a CPU team.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/78322

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/367827
-Spin out of bounds
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/368028
-Spin out of bounds
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/368263
-Not really sure why it fires here. Guess you could call it successful since it made him get to the LOS faster.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/368405
-Can't really tell here since it was a big pile on both sides of the line
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/368513
-Double spin right here. First one does nothing but get him to the line faster. 2nd spin is another spin out of bounds.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/369072
-Seems to be decent firing here but it was likely the balance pen that got him tackled here.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78322/369180
-Spins into a defender not being blocked


In conclusion: There was maybe 1 spin that entire game that actually helped one of the HBs gain a yard or two.


Another Hub City game against a real opponent where they scored 73 points.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/78327

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/594135
-Useless spin that just makes him easier to tackle.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/594239
-Another useless spin that makes him easier to tackle
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/594259
-Really good spin here that seems to come about once every 50 times spin fires.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/594468
-Spins into traffic again
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/594663
-Spins causes him to lose yards
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/594801
-Useless spin that just makes him easier to tackle
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/595062
-Spins out of bounds
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/595196
-Spins out of bounds
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/78327/595261
-Spins out of bounds

Conclusion: I didn't even finish that game out as I'm sure there were many more terrible spins. Any more evidence needed?