Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
The reason why GL sweeps are so good is because people still don't know most goalline designated plays suck, and people don't know how to put their players in a good position to react to the play.

QB Rollout is being abused because of the publicity it was given. You think I don't know qb rollout lit people up in s1?
I have a pretty good idea of what was working and what wasn't inside the top ~25. But no one broadcasted what was working for them and what wasn't. Thats why OP plays were very low key and only used by those who experimented enough to find them.

GL Qb rollout? Nah, most of you just shoved this play down the throats of others until they were forced to use it themselves (even if they don't build for it) or risk losing games.

The community is at fault here, can't expect Corndog and Co. to drop everything they are doing and run to the rescue because some people couldn't keep the situation under control. Big offender imo is Yorick's. Make a team revolving around QB Rollout? Pathetic, annoying, and just plain immature. I'm not saying you don't use good plays and run bad plays to lose out of chivalry, but CMON MAN.

So much wrong in this post...This play has been spammed for a complete season already, if they are having to drop what they are doing to fix it at this point it's their fault. It's pretty hypocritical of you to talk about the community and them pointing out a play when you were leading the charge because you couldn't stop the Spread Dive. Don't remember your famous predictions about what would happen once it got fixed?

Originally posted by burn_209
I wonder how effective these plays are against teams that are made to stop the run. I mean if you are built to defend the pass shouldn't you get wrecked in goalline situations? People don't want to sacrifice in this game.

Clearly you don't know anything about the play if you think you are the fist person to wonder this. People are using passing zone blitzes to stop it...that doesn't have anything to do with stopping the run.

Now, in the final hours of life for a play that has formed the foundation for numerous victories throughout the short life of GLB2, I ask that we remember it not as a broken play that ruined the integrity of the game but rather a shining light that gave running teams hope against the over powered juggernaut that is the current passing game.

I present to you a lol scrim from the Rolling Thunder against the Atlantic City Hookers today in which I removed TPTSNBN from the playbook and here is the result - http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/65704

Maybe nerf all QB Rollouts? And while we're at it those SB spread inside runs are pretty OPed, still, against any play but Middle Overload so we need to work on that too. Hell...Nerf Middle Overload!

Drunks have been running TPTSNBN since S1...before it was the cool thing to do.

Originally posted by Parab00n
So much wrong in this post...This play has been spammed for a complete season already, if they are having to drop what they are doing to fix it at this point it's their fault. It's pretty hypocritical of you to talk about the community and them pointing out a play when you were leading the charge because you couldn't stop the Spread Dive. Don't remember your famous predictions about what would happen once it got fixed?

The spread dive isn't like this. The spread dive was a legit problem because we (DCs) were not properly equipped with the plays to stop inside runs from the 4wr. Why? Because the #WR cap forced DCs to not be able to select plays that could help, and the 4wr formations did little to stop inside runs.

QB Rollout is a hill made into a mountain. Darn near no one truly builds to stop the run. So why would you publicize your weakness to the world? And if you have a strength, why would you publicize it to the world? It's not a strength if everyone knows, and your weakness is only a weakness when it is exploited.

Call me stingy or whatever, but this is why I don't spray out info on building players like an information hose. Of course this probably sounds absurd since AGD2D has had a hell of a season opener, but the things we do right, I want low key, and only raw work and scouting done by someone who is truly investigating should beable to figure out or inquire why someone is doing something that is working.

Threads like "Xavori's guide to stopping ....", Not intentionally pick on you so much Xav, sry... but those types of threads just kill the joy imo. For example, I think it's quite obvious AGD2D has awful pass defense, if you don't know ask Homage and Bhall and they can tell you just how easily they have whooped us historically. If someone came to me tonight with the magic build that will make all of AGD2Ds and 42s CBs have 30% recall, 5 PDs and 1 int a game.... I would turn it down, not because of chivalry or because it would be too easy, but because that's part of the game, you will have your struggles and you will have your strengths, that's what makes you a unique coordinator, builder, owner. etc. Spoonfeeding info, that isn't even accurate most of the time, just destroys that FOBY (Find Out By Yourself) theme I feel like the devs want.

Anyway these walls of texts are unattractive, and it's not rly that big a deal.

Originally posted by burn_209
I wonder how effective these plays are against teams that are made to stop the run. I mean if you are built to defend the pass shouldn't you get wrecked in goalline situations? People don't want to sacrifice in this game.

I think DeeVee can confirm this, but Darkside Vase Breakers (Rom_Fox dc'ing) built a pretty solid defense around his rushing team. It certainly is possible to stop it, but it is also subject to abuse for sure. But not so sure why 500 yard passing games are also so desired. Rushing should be a strong component of GLB2.

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
The spread dive isn't like this. The spread dive was a legit problem because we (DCs) were not properly equipped with the plays to stop inside runs from the 4wr. Why? Because the #WR cap forced DCs to not be able to select plays that could help, and the 4wr formations did little to stop inside runs.

QB Rollout is a hill made into a mountain. Darn near no one truly builds to stop the run. So why would you publicize your weakness to the world? And if you have a strength, why would you publicize it to the world? It's not a strength if everyone knows, and your weakness is only a weakness when it is exploited.

Call me stingy or whatever, but this is why I don't spray out info on building players like an information hose. Of course this probably sounds absurd since AGD2D has had a hell of a season opener, but the things we do right, I want low key, and only raw work and scouting done by someone who is truly investigating should beable to figure out or inquire why someone is doing something that is working.

Threads like "Xavori's guide to stopping ....", Not intentionally pick on you so much Xav, sry... but those types of threads just kill the joy imo. For example, I think it's quite obvious AGD2D has awful pass defense, if you don't know ask Homage and Bhall and they can tell you just how easily they have whooped us historically. If someone came to me tonight with the magic build that will make all of AGD2Ds and 42s CBs have 30% recall, 5 PDs and 1 int a game.... I would turn it down, not because of chivalry or because it would be too easy, but because that's part of the game, you will have your struggles and you will have your strengths, that's what makes you a unique coordinator, builder, owner. etc. Spoonfeeding info, that isn't even accurate most of the time, just destroys that FOBY (Find Out By Yourself) theme I feel like the devs want.

Anyway these walls of texts are unattractive, and it's not rly that big a deal.

well said Jampy.. Alot of what you post has made me think you are full of shit but this is spot on!

Originally posted by Sardonik00
I think DeeVee can confirm this, but Darkside Vase Breakers (Rom_Fox dc'ing) built a pretty solid defense around his rushing team. It certainly is possible to stop it, but it is also subject to abuse for sure. But not so sure why 500 yard passing games are also so desired. Rushing should be a strong component of GLB2.



To add, I liked playing Tampa Bay because it was fun to play a different kind of team. In my mind, Yorick is a bit of a copy of that. I think what you're looking for is a mixture. Having some exceptional pass teams and some exceptional rush teams is fun to me.

@ Jampy: The thing is, all online games are adaptive in that fashion. Eventually there will be builds that are successful under the design of the game and they will propagate. They don't really need publicity, just people paying attention and competing. And they will always stay ahead of the developers.

tl;dr - Just because a play is popular doesn't make it overpowered.

Jampy,

What possibly makes you think I want to win a game by running a play to death knowing that the game defaults to plays that really cannot stop it?

I didn't publicize the play initially. I jumped in to accelerate what was going to happen anyway. It happens IN EVERY SINGLE MMO EVER SINCE THE EARLIEST DAYS OF TEXT BASED MUDS. If people think something is OP, it doesn't matter if reality backs them up or not. The crowds slowly all pile on the tactic/built/play/flavor of the month. Online gamers can almost always be counted on to try to find the shortest path to the cheese.

Stobie hasn't done anything to show that the play is overpowered. All he's done is shwon that's it's popular. Frakkin' duh given the fact that we've spent a week listening to people cry from the rooftops that's it's overpowered. Let me tell you a story about an old MMO, Ultima Online, to illustrate.

Ultima Online in it's early days was nearly total open PvP. The cities were sorta safe, but that's it. There were a lot of players who went around killing other players and taking their stuff.

In this world was a rogue named Xavori. Xavori, being smarter than the average bear, preferred going after targets that had the most valuable stuff. For the most part, that meant guys in plate armor carrying lots of magical reagents....tank mages. Now, tank mages were tough in the same way QB Rollout is tough. But Xavori could kill them. In fact, by their very nature versus the way Xavori was playing, Xavori could kill them pretty easily. So what we had was a good build that encouraged people to carry lots of value on them.

Well, it just happened that someone posted that tank mages were too strong. They had all the advantages of heavy armor on defense with all the advantages of magic on offense. Guess what Xavori did? Go on. Guess.

Xavori made it a point to tell the truth. Tank mages were not overpowered. They were just an easy way to beat people who didn't really know what they were doing in PvP. Now, guess what the result was. Go on. Guess.

Lots and lots of tank mages as the people who believed they were overpowered kept whining and demanding that they be nerfed in spite of the fact that Xavori was getting ridiculously rich killing them.

There was one difference between UO and GLB2, tho. At no point did the designers of UO ever buy into the tank mages are OP argument directly. They had really good data mining tools that showed that tank mages were no better than many, and worse than some. So when they finally got around to addressing the issue of magic and armor, it wasn't done with the idea of nerfing tank mages, but instead encouraging other tactics created greater diversity. In short, they never took away the tank mage build, they just provided incentives to wear lighter armor so you could cast more spells before running out of energy and cast those spells faster.

If this sounds familiar, it should. It really does happen over and over again. People find a very good tactic. Other people run to the game forums to whine. Said tactic becomes really popular. But POPULARITY DOESN'T PROVE OVERPOWERED. All it proves is that a lot of gamers are lazy.

I really do want changes made to how GLB2's defensive AI works against goal line sweeps. But I don't want it just for one play because everything that is wrong that makes QB Rollout Strong so effective is just as wrong with practically every outside run. If the devs overreact to QB Rollout and just take the play away, I'll have no problem running a whole bunch of HB Sweeps, not just the goal line, and then y'all can bitch about how OP HB sweeps are. Heck, go watch the sophomore Minnesota Stunners now and get a head start on such bitching. TxSteve, who has been one of the most vocal critics of QB Rollout, also happens to run the team that is the poster child for the fact that HB Sweeps are even better than QB Rollout since they aren't dependent totally on lead blocking, but get a 'second chance' by having a call carrier that can run over or make defenders miss.

So, anyway, stobie has proven exactly nothing except that that the people playing GLB2 have pretty much the same attitudes and behaviors of the people who play all other games. This doesn't really add anything to the discussion since I'm pretty sure most of the people paying attention, no matter which side of the ZOMG OP argument you are on, could already see that.

Originally posted by Parab00n
Clearly you don't know anything about the play if you think you are the fist person to wonder this. People are using passing zone blitzes to stop it...that doesn't have anything to do with stopping the run.

So hostile man...was it necessary? I dont think Im the first one to think about that but just because something cant be stopped because it is a bad matchup is irresponsible

"The spread dive isn't like this. The spread dive was a legit problem because we (DCs) were not properly equipped with the plays to stop inside runs from the 4wr. Why? Because the #WR cap forced DCs to not be able to select plays that could help, and the 4wr formations did little to stop inside runs." - Jampy

I feel that this is the same as for the GL plays. As DC's we do not have the tools to deal with the formation.

WOT fest

Originally posted by Sardonik00
I think DeeVee can confirm this, but Darkside Vase Breakers (Rom_Fox dc'ing) built a pretty solid defense around his rushing team. It certainly is possible to stop it, but it is also subject to abuse for sure. But not so sure why 500 yard passing games are also so desired. Rushing should be a strong component of GLB2.



Well said

Originally posted by Adderfist

I feel that this is the same as for the GL plays. As DC's we do not have the tools to deal with the formation.

So let's get DCs the tools to stop it and not ruin the beautiful play that it is.

Btw, if it does get the hamfist treatment, OG GLB/Sunday Funday/Air Raid deep-passing attacks should be next on the chopping block. I mean, it'd only be fair, right?

I can actually stop running teams. I have yet to 'stop' a passing team that's made the transition to the new coverage meta.

@ Xavori: A study of adaptive behavior and network effects in online gaming would be kick ass. Someone smarter than us should do it.

But I think the question is -- if it is so popular and just plain ole "effective" -- why did you create a team built completely around it with me? Especially given your well known desire to break games ; )