Warrior General Games

Originally posted by DeeVee8
Dude...just STFU already! You think that Danny Woodhead can block a 350 lb DE better than Frank Gore? I'm so sick of your BS posting.

You couldn't have made a more stupid comment had you consulted prokop before posting your foolishness.

1 both Frank Gore and Woodhead are power rushers with speed (this is what the nfl is turning to thede days)

2 350lb DEs don't exist.

3 look up darren sproles blocks shawn merriman on google. 5'7 sproles puts the hurt on an lb nearly a foot bigger and almost 80 lbs heavier.

Let this be your warning deviate, dont you ever come at me like that again in your life.

Originally posted by Fumanchuchu
Being a powerful runner should also make you a more powerful blocker than a scat back with no power running.

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
In all srsness, if you had 5 mins of football experience you would know what you are saying is absurd. There is no correlation between running skill snd blocking skill, I mean come on.

I'm not sure this is even a serious conversation, but you're stating two different things here. Fumanchuchu is saying that being a powerful person makes you powerful all around, whether blocking or running. Jampy, you're talking about running and blocking skill, which is entirely different than simple raw power. Of course skill at running and blocking take different skillsets that don't necessarily overlap, but power is power is power.

Now of course one could argue that "power rushing" doesn't even refer to being physically strong, that it represents a personal running style and skillset rather than physical attribute.

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
You couldn't have made a more stupid comment had you consulted prokop before posting your foolishness.

1 both Frank Gore and Woodhead are power rushers with speed (this is what the nfl is turning to thede days)

2 350lb DEs don't exist.

3 look up darren sproles blocks shawn merriman on google. 5'7 sproles puts the hurt on an lb nearly a foot bigger and almost 80 lbs heavier.

Let this be your warning deviate, dont you ever come at me like that again in your life.
fwiw that was MJD not sproles

Yeah I think this discussion is about player modelling philosophy.

I agree with Fu (on what I think is his preconceived notion) that you have physical skills, technical skills, and mental skills(or awareness). That is really what you have in football at any level.

If you have great speed but poor technical skills (route running for instance), you may run routes poorly enough that you appear slower than your physical skill would seem to indicate your potential for. If you were able to develop your technique to a higher degree, you would appear faster as a result but it wouldn't change your actual speed in a foot race.

If you have incredible strength & run blocking technique (i.e. you know how to get better leverage relative to your strength), you will be able to push defenders out of the way very effectively. If you take that same strength (or power if you prefer) and apply it to poorly developed pass blocking technique, you can be out-leveraged there and get beat regularly...with the exception (and this is key to why I am with Fu) of where your strength is FAR TOO superior for the defender you are engaging with (side note: not to say they can't get around you with superior speed/agility but if they did, you would not be engaged).

So to me, the kicking power vs FG power example is an unnatural separation and punting power is another consolidation candidate imo (I know this is debatable but I'm speaking strictly on modelling a player for a video game). I would think "leg power" as the base, then your technique at FG, KO(which would include onside KO), and Punting would effectively be your modifier for competency.

Originally posted by SteveMax58
Yeah I think this discussion is about player modelling philosophy.

I agree with Fu (on what I think is his preconceived notion) that you have physical skills, technical skills, and mental skills(or awareness). That is really what you have in football at any level.

If you have great speed but poor technical skills (route running for instance), you may run routes poorly enough that you appear slower than your physical skill would seem to indicate your potential for. If you were able to develop your technique to a higher degree, you would appear faster as a result but it wouldn't change your actual speed in a foot race.

If you have incredible strength & run blocking technique (i.e. you know how to get better leverage relative to your strength), you will be able to push defenders out of the way very effectively. If you take that same strength (or power if you prefer) and apply it to poorly developed pass blocking technique, you can be out-leveraged there and get beat regularly...with the exception (and this is key to why I am with Fu) of where your strength is FAR TOO superior for the defender you are engaging with (side note: not to say they can't get around you with superior speed/agility but if they did, you would not be engaged).

So to me, the kicking power vs FG power example is an unnatural separation and punting power is another consolidation candidate imo (I know this is debatable but I'm speaking strictly on modelling a player for a video game). I would think "leg power" as the base, then your technique at FG, KO(which would include onside KO), and Punting would effectively be your modifier for competency.

I like this response. You win

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
You couldn't have made a more stupid comment had you consulted prokop before posting your foolishness.

1 both Frank Gore and Woodhead are power rushers with speed (this is what the nfl is turning to thede days)

2 350lb DEs don't exist.

3 look up darren sproles blocks shawn merriman on google. 5'7 sproles puts the hurt on an lb nearly a foot bigger and almost 80 lbs heavier.

Let this be your warning deviate, dont you ever come at me like that again in your life.

I just got Jamp Stamped.

Originally posted by Kayoh

fwiw that was MJD not sproles

Same thing..

My 2 favorite backs

Originally posted by SteveMax58

If you have incredible strength & run blocking technique (i.e. you know how to get better leverage relative to your strength), you will be able to push defenders out of the way very effectively. If you take that same strength (or power if you prefer) and apply it to poorly developed pass blocking technique, you can be out-leveraged there and get beat regularly...with the exception (and this is key to why I am with Fu) of where your strength is FAR TOO superior for the defender you are engaging with (side note: not to say they can't get around you with superior speed/agility but if they did, you would not be engaged

I like everything you said but this, in the blocking game there HARDLY is a snap where a player beats his blocker by pure speed and agility and avoids engagement.

Clemsons! Vic Beasley is the new embodiment of go to pass rushers the NFL teams are starting to move toward. At 6 foot 3 and 225 pounds I hardly see a snap where he is lined up against a tackle even remotely in his weight class. I don't know about you but without insulting this man strength I do not see a single match up where his strength can be even compared to the man he is lining up against while pass rushing.

it is quite obvious if you watch the game today the Elite pass rushers are becoming slimmer. How can a battle which is outside linebacker / defensive end verses Tackle be so lopsided in terms of the physical qualities of the opposing sidesstill end up in a good battle Snap iN and snap out?

quite simply because the skill sets of the two players are different. the truth is NFL teams are starting to realize that the ends do not need to match the power of the tackles they're going against.

and this brings me to the big point I'm trying to make and what I find is a very realistic realization that warrior general has made. In the run game these speedy ends are far from effective this is because the run power and technique of the tackles far exceeds the run block breaking capability of the Blitzer. However as soon as you turn to the pass game the Pass power and technique of the tackles are often only enough to hold back the Blitzer for a few seconds , who let me remind you, has little to no effects in the run game. why is this? Because the skill set for a powerful pass blocker and a powerful run blocker are completely different. We see evidence of this everyday watching NFL, College, high school, and even middle school football. logically, this may sound counter-intuitive but it is a fact.

sorry if this little bit is it difficult to read, I am sending this on my cell phone.

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
I like everything you said but this, in the blocking game there HARDLY is a snap where a player beats his blocker by pure speed and agility and avoids engagement.

Clemsons! Vic Beasley is the new embodiment of go to pass rushers the NFL teams are starting to move toward. At 6 foot 3 and 225 pounds I hardly see a snap where he is lined up against a tackle even remotely in his weight class. I don't know about you but without insulting this man strength I do not see a single match up where his strength can be even compared to the man he is lining up against while pass rushing.

it is quite obvious if you watch the game today the Elite pass rushers are becoming slimmer. How can a battle which is outside linebacker / defensive end verses Tackle be so lopsided in terms of the physical qualities of the opposing sidesstill end up in a good battle Snap iN and snap out?

quite simply because the skill sets of the two players are different. the truth is NFL teams are starting to realize that the ends do not need to match the power of the tackles they're going against.

and this brings me to the big point I'm trying to make and what I find is a very realistic realization that warrior general has made. In the run game these speedy ends are far from effective this is because the run power and technique of the tackles far exceeds the run block breaking capability of the Blitzer. However as soon as you turn to the pass game the Pass power and technique of the tackles are often only enough to hold back the Blitzer for a few seconds , who let me remind you, has little to no effects in the run game. why is this? Because the skill set for a powerful pass blocker and a powerful run blocker are completely different. We see evidence of this everyday watching NFL, College, high school, and even middle school football. logically, this may sound counter-intuitive but it is a fact.

sorry if this little bit is it difficult to read, I am sending this on my cell phone.

lol...its the very first time that you wrote something that makes sense and could come out of the mouth of a educated person...did you get hacked?

Originally posted by peeti
not necessary to do this imo. The Power back stuff is easy to answer...pump in Balance and Powwer Running like a boss.

The Thing with the blocking is totally srewed up tho...They shoulde simply done a "Blocking Power" instead of splitting it. Just raise the SP cost on that thing and its fixed. Just seems stupid the way blockers are made now. can be wrong tho

Also Conditioning as it ups the Reps on the combine.

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
I like everything you said but this, in the blocking game there HARDLY is a snap where a player beats his blocker by pure speed and agility and avoids engagement.


I know what you mean but would say that at the extremes in the NFL, there are some DEs that can run around some OTs. Then there is everybody else in between who has some amount of engagement but also some amount of non-engagement. See Osi's 6 sacks against the Eagles a few years ago...or Dwight Freeney's best moves. They may engage very briefly but lesser technique on the LT is what stops them from maintaining that engagement (plus those were really good players in their prime).

In college the extremes are even more pronounced while the average O-lineman (while "girthy") is not nearly as strong as an NFL o-lineman. But thats why most LTs in college dont translate to be NFL LTs...they just aren't fast enough to keep up with the elite of the NFL.

I think in the end its a personal opinion on how you represent players (and whether "realistic" is a goal). I personally like the separation of physical from technical skills as they make more "sense" to me intuitively. Combining them as ratings I can put SPs into makes it less intuitive & seem less like real players imo.

Since the players are at such low levels now it's really hard to discern if what we're seeing is really representative of what will be. I think we should allow the skills to flesh out a bit more before deciding any are useless or redundant.

Originally posted by Dub J
Since the players are at such low levels now it's really hard to discern if what we're seeing is really representative of what will be. I think we should allow the skills to flesh out a bit more before deciding any are useless or redundant.

no one said anything about those 2 things...its about if it make sense to split those points from a logical point of view

Do you understand what the word "redundant" means?

Originally posted by Jampy2.0
I like everything you said but this, in the blocking game there HARDLY is a snap where a player beats his blocker by pure speed and agility and avoids engagement.

Clemsons! Vic Beasley is the new embodiment of go to pass rushers the NFL teams are starting to move toward. At 6 foot 3 and 225 pounds I hardly see a snap where he is lined up against a tackle even remotely in his weight class. I don't know about you but without insulting this man strength I do not see a single match up where his strength can be even compared to the man he is lining up against while pass rushing.

it is quite obvious if you watch the game today the Elite pass rushers are becoming slimmer. How can a battle which is outside linebacker / defensive end verses Tackle be so lopsided in terms of the physical qualities of the opposing sidesstill end up in a good battle Snap iN and snap out?

quite simply because the skill sets of the two players are different. the truth is NFL teams are starting to realize that the ends do not need to match the power of the tackles they're going against.

and this brings me to the big point I'm trying to make and what I find is a very realistic realization that warrior general has made. In the run game these speedy ends are far from effective this is because the run power and technique of the tackles far exceeds the run block breaking capability of the Blitzer. However as soon as you turn to the pass game the Pass power and technique of the tackles are often only enough to hold back the Blitzer for a few seconds , who let me remind you, has little to no effects in the run game. why is this? Because the skill set for a powerful pass blocker and a powerful run blocker are completely different. We see evidence of this everyday watching NFL, College, high school, and even middle school football. logically, this may sound counter-intuitive but it is a fact.

sorry if this little bit is it difficult to read, I am sending this on my cell phone.

Originally posted by peeti
lol...its the very first time that you wrote something that makes sense and could come out of the mouth of a educated person...did you get hacked?