Warrior General Games

Originally posted by RaphaneKnight
Originally posted by middawg

While I appreciate new S16 teams voicing their opinions, lets keep the discussion to S15 team owners/coordinators who have played PWG with their teams, have a greater sense of the historical discussion, and who have little or no affilition, or horse in the race if you will, to teams promoting in S16


It was additionally stated a few seasons ago by GLB management that the process has to be simple so it it can auto-process in the offseason. This eliminates any sort of "manual voting" as a reasonable supplement to my proposal. In addition, I maintain that scrims, even ranked scrims and Tourney games, are a shallow, arbiitrary, and easily manipulated method of setting promotion criteria.


The three part promotion system listed above is nearing the complications we see in the BCS forumala.

Relax, I was only suggesting an alternative and a more balanced view. No need to bring this elitist attitude to the table. Our team had no controversy and therefore there is really no need to defend ourselves in the first place. Based on the current system or even your own criteria, we would have made it go gold regardless.

I'm just trying to help and there isn't really any reason for me to do this. If you think I don't deserve to talk about this subject, fine I'll stay out but I had no agenda in mind when I wrote that. I'm in no way affiliated with Dirty Inc, Midgets, or SAS and I barely even know those owners. I think all three of those teams are equally deserving and I tried to bring a more balanced view. I never said I was right or wrong and I even stated that this wasn't the perfect solution.


I should have noted that one big reason nothing was presented to GLB management in the past was because there were too many cooks in the kitchen if you will, so I was merely trying to narrow down the group that could reach a concensus, not alienate anybody, especially somebody I don't know. I value everyones opinion and was not trying to come off as elitist.


I really feel a sustainable promotion system is in PWG's best interest. This problem dates back to S10 and S11 when nobody knew of any system in place and has only gotten marginally better since and seems we have reverted back to no tried and true system this offseason.


I politely ask the PWG user base to have trust and faith in a defined collective of Gold Owners presesenting a reasonable and sound promotion system plan to GLB management that meets PWG and GLB goals.

Originally posted by EatDaBeaver
I think it would be a bit complicated to consider the previous seasons past, even though I do agree it is somewhat valid, sometimes teams just don't field competitive teams (my own, in S13,S14 for example) and even though I agree it should be held against them, as it plays to their inconsistency, I also agree that this would still fail to bring the best teams to the Gold leagues, and this system would likely promote anyone who did good in silver who had gone 20-0 to win copper the season before, as they would be like 35-1 liftetime, which is going to look a heck of a lot better, than a heck of a lot better teams.

I think going off of conference champions is a bad idea, particularly for this season, as being in the final on one side only means you actually put in an AI, and it would be more impressive to just make the playoffs on the other side....

Using anything but the playoffs would likely bring one to two non-boosting non-custom teams a season to Gold, as you don't have to boost to go 16-0, just to win in the playoffs, and although I'd love to see it happen, having non-boost., non-custom teams in the current Gold League is just a pointless and wasted team, even though they may impact the regular season, it would really just be a chance for them to play spoiler to a team who actually plans to boost and custom to remain competitive in the league.

I know, that sounds odd coming from me, but we should not be promoting non boosters to the Gold League as is.

The current system, and all of your systems, are only flawed because of the flawed structure of the Leagues, if it wasn't for the Leagues being lopsided, we could just go off the regular season records of the conference champs, and almost always be picking the best teams.

Hartford is only in line for promotion because their conference was so weak, and they played a nonboosting team (my own) in the conference championship, if the conferences were even slightly balanced this result would not occur.

Essentially, and I've said this at least 20 times, we need less silver leagues, it makes no sense for the sake of competitive nature to have the same number of silver leagues as copper leagues, as copper teams don't ALL stay, and the only pool of people to pull Silver teams from is copper, so it just won't work.

I think that 2-3 Silver leagues being transformed into copper leagues would more than fix both the gold league promotion problem, as well as SEVERELY increase the competitiveness of Silver Leagues.

I really wish people would read my post....

EDB -


There are too many errors in the logic and too much lack of comprehension of the promotion system I propose in of your post, to address them all. Bort wants a fluid league structure, it is my objective to supply a promotion system that fits a fluid league structure, plain and simple. If you want to take up the torch on redesigning the league structure, please be my guest. Whats funny is, discussion of league structure changes are what clouded earlier discussions on defining a workable promotion system, and hence, no improvements were made.


I am open to discussion of the pros/cons of limiting the initial pool of candidates to Conf. Champs. Everybody can argue both sides of that coin. I suggest going with Conf Champions because that is obviously the simplest and most likely to result in a pool of deserving candidates.


To address 2 points your missing on.

1) Uncompetitive seasons do not cost you anything in my plan, it's not by Win% but rather total Wins, an uncompetitive season only counts toward maintaining the win total you have already established. A good discussion could be making playoff victories worth more than 1, maybe they are worth 3X or something to that effect.

2) Seasonal Team Turnover would have to increase 10 fold for a 39 Win team to show up at the top of a most Silver Wins list. Without trying, I could, glancing through Silver Leagues, pick out 10 or more teams that easily have 75+ career wins.

Carrer wins is not a good factor, plenty of new teams are better than old ones...

I don't want to re-do any structure...

and go fuck yourself I comprehend everything just fine....

to you for personally attacking me in your response, the obvious flaw we have all come to is that YOU CAN'T TAKE CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS as a means for being the best team....

it shouldn't be that we re-write a promotion script to attempt to compensate for that, we should make slight changes, which have proved to work (LOOK AT HOW MUCH BETTER COPPER WAS THIS SEASON) to attempt to fix the actual problem, rather than disguise it.

I politely ask the PWG user base to have trust and faith in a defined collective of Gold Owners presesenting a reasonable and sound promotion system plan to GLB management that meets PWG and GLB goals.

Aka hide a flaw in the system ASAP, rather than making a quick and easy fix to better the system

I wouldn't support any system involving votes.

I will take record versus other silver teams who are up for promotion and record in official Silver tournament though.

Why change a perfectly functioning promotion script, that is set up the best way possible to get the best teams.....

its not the script thats broken its the leagues... its pretty clear when a farm team with pretty generic and exposed AIs gets to a conference championship that their is something wrong with league structure... not the promotion script.

We need to change the leagues to where teams like hartford shock don't get to league championship games because the hardest team they faced was my nonboosting one, while people in the other conference had much more difficult games in the first round...

Originally posted by middawg
TT - Random Selection fails the most deserving and highest liklihood of competitiveness tests/criteria for a PWG promotion. So you think those goals should be tossed out? o_O

The randomly drawn system eliminates the strength of schedule issue.

I remember that there were some silver leagues in seasons past with several great teams in one conference or one league while others had a walk in the park to get out of Silver.

Obviously we need to take the winners of Silver, but we can't use Points For, Record, or Points Against because it biases a decent team in a weak conference over a good team in a good conference.

Random removes that element and still makes the promotion fair. While I'll admit that it doesn't pick the next 'Best' team, it isn't complicated and is easy to explain.

My real opinion is the results of the official Silver Tournament be used for promotion instead of league performance, but that would mean that in order to automate this promotion (the only solution that Bort will accept I'm afraid) that there would need to be a field in the team history that Bort would be able to run against his promotion script that indicated where they finished in the tournement.

NO?

Can't use an optional tournament for Gold promotion...

TT - we will have to agree to disagree, my background is such that "random" can never be the most desirable solution to any problem.

Originally posted by middawg
TT - we will have to agree to disagree, my background is such that "random" can never be the most desirable solution to any problem.

I agree with you that it is not ideal.

But I will put 10:1 on $100.00 that Bort will NEVER include anything in his promotion system that cannot be automated using existing data.

That makes a lot of really good ideas NGTH.

Indeed, I also think that he will never merit any kind of advantage to teams deciding to join the Silver tournament, and because of the likeliness of abuse will never grant merit to ANY scrimmages....

thus the current system is actually the best system for promotion and the problem isn't with the script...

rather that it wasn't run in these recent cases....

and the only thing were noticing is how a few silver leagues are weaker and lesser quality teams are advancing, the only solution being to increase the competition in silver, not re-write some masterpiece script that makes the silver playoffs meaningless, or at least less important, and MAY possibly produce the best teams, when the one we have now has done a super job, and the only real flaw being the lack of competititon in silver leagues.