Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Octowned
Precisely, that's the thing - to get high pancake, you probably wasted opportunities to get str/bkl/agi/vis up higher, giving you less initial pancake ability and the SA will just get you "back to par." A truly great build can avoid the pancake SA all together, and in my personal experience the investment in attributes is far better than in pancake.

Now, take a great build, and at level 50 add two pieces of AEQ pancake, and a relatively cheap 4 base to it, and maybe we have a different story. I've never seen it, though.

I disagree....

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=477225&playoffs=0

I disagree that pancake isn't worth it for Cs and Gs. You just need to build a C or G that has enough strength to be much stronger than the NT or DT in front of you. Also, I've seen plenty of C/G that end up blocking LBs. In that case, pancakes can be pretty important.

IMO the OP does'nt have enough strength to get pancakes. Many NTs at that level have similar strength, so how can you expect to pancake them? You have to get a large strength advantage, enough speed/agility/confidence, and place your VAs correctly.

I think Showboat blocker works pretty well, but it's tough to tell with things like morale.

Originally posted by risico
I disagree that pancake isn't worth it for Cs and Gs. You just need to build a C or G that has enough strength to be much stronger than the NT or DT in front of you. Also, I've seen plenty of C/G that end up blocking LBs. In that case, pancakes can be pretty important.

IMO the OP does'nt have enough strength to get pancakes. Many NTs at that level have similar strength, so how can you expect to pancake them? You have to get a large strength advantage, enough speed/agility/confidence, and place your VAs correctly.

I think Showboat blocker works pretty well, but it's tough to tell with things like morale.

Sorry but you're obviously uninformed on the subject... only a center will have more strength than a DT (considering equally well built players), guards get the same exact leveling increase to strength as a DT. Although, the DT will have a much better agility due to it being a major. Also we're talking about ~5 points difference in strength between a center and DT at the highest level (again talking about equally well-built players), that's hardly a big advantage in the pancake department. If your goal is to get a billion pancakes, take lots of the pancake SA and play scrubs.

Lastly, you should more than enough strength to pancake a LB reliably enough to not need t waste points on the pancake SA.

Like I said... the pancake SA is very limited on a center or guard... then again I'm talking about actually playing in a competitive league, against competitive players.

Sorry, but I don't believe that all players are "equally well built". I thought this thread was a discussion about how to build a player well in order to get a lot of pancakes.

It's ridiculous to think that only a C will have more strength than a DT. Consider that many DTs invest their SP into agility first and that many of them take agility higher than they do strength. If you take strength high enough early on in a guard's build, you can give him enough to have a large advantage over many DTs and even over some NTs.

But very few people are willing to take attributes to a high enough cap to do this.

Originally posted by risico
Sorry, but I don't believe that all players are "equally well built". I thought this thread was a discussion about how to build a player well in order to get a lot of pancakes.

It's ridiculous to think that only a C will have more strength than a DT. Consider that many DTs invest their SP into agility first and that many of them take agility higher than they do strength. If you take strength high enough early on in a guard's build, you can give him enough to have a large advantage over many DTs and even over some NTs.

But very few people are willing to take attributes to a high enough cap to do this.

Not all players are equally well-built, true enough. Although, at the pro or higher level, you shouldn't expect anything but well-built players. This is where your point falls on it's face, those SP you spent in the pancake SA become almost completely worthless at that point.

My level 33 RG won the pancake gold in S8, the silver medal went to a guy who was ~100 pancakes behind... he had 1 in the pancake SA from his CE. Look at his numbers since that season, now that all the DTs started to catch up to his strength (because eventually I had to shift to work on blocking and agility, to make a complete player). He has over 101 strength at level 33 (77 natural)...

Give me a break... the pancake SA even with a couple point advantage in strength is laughable in terms of efficiency, you're honestly better off spending those SP on stamina or confidence if you're an interior offensive lineman. Even if you block linebackers a lot... your strength should be so much higher, that the pancake SA is just overkill (and hence not worth the price of admission). This is different for OT's, because DEs are typically much weaker. It's also different for TEs and FBs, because they generally face the weaker LBs and DBs... yet they need to spread the SP around, so they can't jack up strength super high, making the pancake SA much more friendly.

Lastly, you made a statement that you disagree with me, not the OP. So our tangent debate, is regarding the value of the pancake SA, in relation to interior linemen... not how to make a pancake machine. It's cool to disagree, but at least try and back it up with some reasoning and facts.

First, 77 natural strength at lvl 33 isn't that much. A lot of DTs and NTs will easily match that, so I can see where you're coming from with the "not that much of an advantage" idea. Heck, I had DTs (built as agility DTs) that had 77 strength at lvl 33.

My contention is that if you pump strength high enough early, no DT is going to match it. I haven't seen many DTs with 90+ natural strength at lvl 33. That's what I would consider a sizeable strength advantage. With a sizeable strength advantage, the pancake SA is going to make a difference. It has for my C - most pancakes of any C in his league and he was playing underleveled for p much the entire season.

I don't know if I'd waste SP in the Pancake SA. I'm not one to use the SAs much, let alone one at the end of the tree which requires a ton of SP investment. I'd agree that those SP are likely better invested in something else. That said, if you get a piece of AEQ with the pancake SA, it's definitely worth buying.

Your point was that the Pancake SA is very limited. That's just not true IMO. There's a difference between being limited and being inefficient. I would say pancake is p inefficient, but if you have the right build and get a piece of AEQ that has Pancake on it, I would use it.

The question isn't 'are pancakes worth it', it is 'does the SA help you get them.' In my experience, no, it doesn't

IDK - I saw a decent jump in pancakes when I upgraded my Pancake AEQ a bit last season. The competition was better than in my previous league.

It could be due to other factors though - build rounding out or something like that.

Originally posted by risico
First, 77 natural strength at lvl 33 isn't that much. A lot of DTs and NTs will easily match that, so I can see where you're coming from with the "not that much of an advantage" idea. Heck, I had DTs (built as agility DTs) that had 77 strength at lvl 33.

My contention is that if you pump strength high enough early, no DT is going to match it. I haven't seen many DTs with 90+ natural strength at lvl 33. That's what I would consider a sizeable strength advantage. With a sizeable strength advantage, the pancake SA is going to make a difference. It has for my C - most pancakes of any C in his league and he was playing underleveled for p much the entire season.

I don't know if I'd waste SP in the Pancake SA. I'm not one to use the SAs much, let alone one at the end of the tree which requires a ton of SP investment. I'd agree that those SP are likely better invested in something else. That said, if you get a piece of AEQ with the pancake SA, it's definitely worth buying.

Your point was that the Pancake SA is very limited. That's just not true IMO. There's a difference between being limited and being inefficient. I would say pancake is p inefficient, but if you have the right build and get a piece of AEQ that has Pancake on it, I would use it.

77 natural strength is in-fact pretty good... in relation to how most agents build. I know this because I had 40-50 teams try and recruit me for S10. That doesn't mean that it's incredible either, it just means that pancakes aren't important to me... my 77 natural blocking and 68 natural agility (on top of my 77 natural strength) is what makes my level 33 OG so coveted.

Centers gain a considerable amount more to strength each level (~33% more in-fact)... it's relatively easy for a center to reach 90+ natural strength by level 33. My OG will be, at most, 15 strength points behind a well built center at their peaks. You can build a OG who has a slightly higher strength (maybe 5 more), sure, but he'll be a relatively immobile pile of shit... I on the other hand, refuse to spend those 30+ SP to gain ~5 more strength... they could give a much greater return elsewhere (like taking speed from the 60 cap to the 68 cap or taking agility from the 68 cap to the 73 cap). All it means is that I'll get a few less pancakes each season.

The pancake SA is inefficient, we both agree right? So WTF would you put on an inefficient piece of AEQ? There's better shit to choose from, far better shit... wasted SP is wasted SP, be it from building, leveling or EQ/AEQ/etc...

The inefficiency makes it limited. As in, the return you get is limited, so it in turn makes the SA limited. How good is a piece of +13% break tackle AEQ on a player with 35 strength and 25 carrying? Now take that same piece of AEQ and put it on a 110 strength and 75 carrying player... that +13% break tackle chance is roughly like +0.015% boost to break tackles on the first player and roughly like +1.3% boost to break tackles on the latter player. Tell me, which player is limiting himself by AEQ choice?

I think the SA is SP inefficient in terms of its cost. You have to invest points into every spot in the tree just to be able to raise the SA - that is what makes it an inefficient investment.

But if you can get the SA raised without investing all of those SP, then IMO it becomes a lot more efficient. The return from the SA after investing tons of SP into it may not be worth it, but the return from investing a few bonus tokens into it may be worth it. When the value justifies the cost, SAs become options in this game. I don't think a few BTs is too much of a cost.

I can't say for sure how well the Pancake SA works, but I do know that my C had a big increase in pancakes after equipping that piece of AEQ and he was playing against better competition.

Plus, I don't know if there's a much better sink for AEQ for a C. Maybe if I got a +hold block % piece or another line general piece, but those haven't been easy to find, so I went with the Pancake piece. I probably won't keep it forever, but it's not complete crap like some seem to think. It can be effective if you build your guy correctly.

Originally posted by risico
I think the SA is SP inefficient in terms of its cost. You have to invest points into every spot in the tree just to be able to raise the SA - that is what makes it an inefficient investment.

But if you can get the SA raised without investing all of those SP, then IMO it becomes a lot more efficient. The return from the SA after investing tons of SP into it may not be worth it, but the return from investing a few bonus tokens into it may be worth it. When the value justifies the cost, SAs become options in this game. I don't think a few BTs is too much of a cost.

I can't say for sure how well the Pancake SA works, but I do know that my C had a big increase in pancakes after equipping that piece of AEQ and he was playing against better competition.

Plus, I don't know if there's a much better sink for AEQ for a C. Maybe if I got a +hold block % piece or another line general piece, but those haven't been easy to find, so I went with the Pancake piece. I probably won't keep it forever, but it's not complete crap like some seem to think. It can be effective if you build your guy correctly.

This is where we're not seeing eye to eye... you think the SA is beneficial no matter what, just inefficient. I on the other hand feel that while the SA does give some sort of benefit, I don't think that benefit is as valuable as most other choices.

The SA isn't always active (so you need it at a high level to make it consistent). When it does work, the SA gives a bonus to one aspect of the blocking roll (executing a pancake block). I'm willing to bet that the bonus it gives is multiplicative as well, thus if you have a lousy base chance, the bonus the SA gives is also lousy.

Personally, I would rather take almost any other SA from AEQ on an interior lineman... I'm a big fan of quick cuts and my OG has it at level 6 currently... once I get his speed to 68 and get outside blocker to 15, having quick cuts at level 8 will make my OG scary good on pulls IMHO. Not to mention having high speed and agility with ample quick cuts allows a blocker to ping-pong inside a tangle of defenders, which on occasion, can lead to blocking multiple defenders as the HB runs past.