As far as first step, I think it's a waste of time for O-line.
QC too, not worth it
QC too, not worth it
RAPB
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We're at the point where we agree to disagree with everything beeing said.
Some personal remarks:
I'd still go for that piece as a second adv. piece (I got one as second piece for both my OTs). Seems to work pretty good so far, despite my OTs having sub 50 speed. For all of my offensive lineman, I'd really love to take agility to 80 or 90, but the cost is just too much (so I'm stopping at 74).
b.t.w.: For my FS, I plan to take First Step up +3 for 11 Skill Points pretty soon (expecting +3-5 % acceleration). In my opinion, it seems to trigger quite often already.
Thanks for the discussion!
Some personal remarks:
I'd still go for that piece as a second adv. piece (I got one as second piece for both my OTs). Seems to work pretty good so far, despite my OTs having sub 50 speed. For all of my offensive lineman, I'd really love to take agility to 80 or 90, but the cost is just too much (so I'm stopping at 74).
b.t.w.: For my FS, I plan to take First Step up +3 for 11 Skill Points pretty soon (expecting +3-5 % acceleration). In my opinion, it seems to trigger quite often already.
Thanks for the discussion!
Capaneus
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Originally posted by RAPB
Bort announced, that the higher you take a SA, the less it adds to the existing bonus / chance. According to that, what's better: getting from 0 to 4, from 4 to 8 or from 8 to 12?
From what I remember, Bort has said SA increases work this way:
Pts 1-10 are all equivalent.
Pts 11+ face diminishing returns at some unspecified rate.
So, for example, take a SA like Swat Ball. Let's say it gives +5% to your PD chance. 2 points in it would give +10%, and 8 points would give +40%. However, 15 points might only give +70% (not +75%).
That's what I remember, and if I'm mistaken, I'd be happy to know, because it comes up pretty frequently.
Bort announced, that the higher you take a SA, the less it adds to the existing bonus / chance. According to that, what's better: getting from 0 to 4, from 4 to 8 or from 8 to 12?
From what I remember, Bort has said SA increases work this way:
Pts 1-10 are all equivalent.
Pts 11+ face diminishing returns at some unspecified rate.
So, for example, take a SA like Swat Ball. Let's say it gives +5% to your PD chance. 2 points in it would give +10%, and 8 points would give +40%. However, 15 points might only give +70% (not +75%).
That's what I remember, and if I'm mistaken, I'd be happy to know, because it comes up pretty frequently.
Edited by Capaneus on May 21, 2009 15:43:56
Octowned
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He said that after 10, there is an immediate decrease in effectiveness of +1, to make sure that players who pump an SA to 14 or 15 weren't going to break the game. He said nothing about 1-10 being equivalent, etc. I started the topic asking about SAs going past 11 a few days after AEQ was introduced.
Capaneus
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Originally posted by Octowned
He said nothing about 1-10 being equivalent, etc.
From what I remember, he has said exactly that. Anyone else remember the same?
He said nothing about 1-10 being equivalent, etc.
From what I remember, he has said exactly that. Anyone else remember the same?
Djinnt
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Originally posted by Capaneus
Originally posted by Octowned
He said nothing about 1-10 being equivalent, etc.
From what I remember, he has said exactly that. Anyone else remember the same?
Yeah. I've never seen a post about the first 10 points being worth gradually less, only that if you take a SA above 10, it's less effective than taking an attribute above 100, respectively.
Originally posted by Octowned
He said nothing about 1-10 being equivalent, etc.
From what I remember, he has said exactly that. Anyone else remember the same?
Yeah. I've never seen a post about the first 10 points being worth gradually less, only that if you take a SA above 10, it's less effective than taking an attribute above 100, respectively.
Octowned
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No, never seen a post about them being worth gradually less, the same, or worth gradually more. We don't know how they work, in terms of likelihood of firing, increase to stats, etc., as you progress, simply that after 10 there is a sharp decline to prevent breaking
Capaneus
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Ok, went through the Bort stalker thread. His actual words are a bit ambiguous, but I think they support my version. This is from p. 16, if anyone cares.
Bort: Yeah they'd be pretty good, but not a huge ton better than 11 really, based on the way that most of them work. Yes it would take a while to get something to lv 15, not to mention all the SP's you have to spend to get to lv 10 naturally!
Nixx: Interesting. Kind of diminishing returns, logarithmic scale or whatever? Going from 9 to 10 gives more than going from 10 to 11?
Bort: Sorta; there's just some special stuff in there for stuff greater than 10 to keep things from getting horribly broken (like autofake every time or something LOL)
Later, which clinches it for me:
TSE: What about the difference between 1s and 5s? Is that change far more significant than 5-10? Does it work such that 0-1 is worth the most, then consistently decreasing in value as you move up?
Bort: No, just points over 10 are specially treated.
I'm right
Right?
Bort: Yeah they'd be pretty good, but not a huge ton better than 11 really, based on the way that most of them work. Yes it would take a while to get something to lv 15, not to mention all the SP's you have to spend to get to lv 10 naturally!
Nixx: Interesting. Kind of diminishing returns, logarithmic scale or whatever? Going from 9 to 10 gives more than going from 10 to 11?
Bort: Sorta; there's just some special stuff in there for stuff greater than 10 to keep things from getting horribly broken (like autofake every time or something LOL)
Later, which clinches it for me:
TSE: What about the difference between 1s and 5s? Is that change far more significant than 5-10? Does it work such that 0-1 is worth the most, then consistently decreasing in value as you move up?
Bort: No, just points over 10 are specially treated.
I'm right
Right?Octowned
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He said they aren't consistently decreasing in value, but he didn't discount the fact that they might INCREASE in value.
Plus, when you figure how the sim is actually run, there is a "hump" that actually is going to make you better than the opponent. Sometimes all you'll need is 4 to see an impact. Other times it might be 8 to really see much. You either break the block or don't - if the guy you're holding back is WAY WORSE he needs a lot more SAs to close the gap. But you can't tell the difference between somebody you dominate or somebody you're slightly better than, until you sort of hit that middle ground where the sim is going to roll something in each of your favor.
That is why I think going from 5-10 is way more important than 0-5. Sure, the bonus might not be that huge, but in this game the important thing is being better than your opponent on the roll. If you couldn't beat him before, how is just a few in an SA really going to do much good for you?
Plus, when you figure how the sim is actually run, there is a "hump" that actually is going to make you better than the opponent. Sometimes all you'll need is 4 to see an impact. Other times it might be 8 to really see much. You either break the block or don't - if the guy you're holding back is WAY WORSE he needs a lot more SAs to close the gap. But you can't tell the difference between somebody you dominate or somebody you're slightly better than, until you sort of hit that middle ground where the sim is going to roll something in each of your favor.
That is why I think going from 5-10 is way more important than 0-5. Sure, the bonus might not be that huge, but in this game the important thing is being better than your opponent on the roll. If you couldn't beat him before, how is just a few in an SA really going to do much good for you?
fakesanta
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Originally posted by RAPB
Originally posted by Octowned
Okay, fine, let me put it another way.
To get first step to +4 costs you 8 upgrades. That's 64 bonus tokens. Every 4 bonus tokens you could cash-in for a simple 1 SP. That means to get to +4 costs you sixteen SP.
The natural cost of going from 1 to 4 is 1+1+2+2 = 6 SP.
Would a WR ever spend 16 SP to get first step to 4? No
Then why the heck would a guard spend 16 skill points to get first step to 4?
---
Aka, the only time you should use an out of position SA is if you get it up to 8, so the value at least comes CLOSE to being worth it. The only time you should ever use ANY equip on an SA is if you can get it to 8 (ideally 10 if it's an in position SA). That doesn't mean SAs suck below 8. It just means don't waste your time on the AEQ for that SA, it is a bad decision based on opportunity costs.
Impressive math and logic. Exept... you know... there's one question not answered:
What exactly is the price of something you can't buy?
(take your time, because obviously you never thought of this before)
Bort announced, that the higher you take a SA, the less it adds to the existing bonus / chance. According to that, what's better: getting from 0 to 4, from 4 to 8 or from 8 to 12?
...................
BORT NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING.
what he DID say one time in a thread was that once a special ability is above 10, there are diminishing returns. for example:
let's say that one point in "shed block" is actually "+2% of blocks are shed." so at 10, you're shedding +20% of all blocks
when you put on custom/advanced equipment, and it's at 11, then the 11th point might only yield "+1.5% of blocks are shed." get it? therefore, the effort put into getting one attribute to 16 should instead be put into getting two attributes to 9 or 10.
Originally posted by Octowned
Okay, fine, let me put it another way.
To get first step to +4 costs you 8 upgrades. That's 64 bonus tokens. Every 4 bonus tokens you could cash-in for a simple 1 SP. That means to get to +4 costs you sixteen SP.
The natural cost of going from 1 to 4 is 1+1+2+2 = 6 SP.
Would a WR ever spend 16 SP to get first step to 4? No
Then why the heck would a guard spend 16 skill points to get first step to 4?
---
Aka, the only time you should use an out of position SA is if you get it up to 8, so the value at least comes CLOSE to being worth it. The only time you should ever use ANY equip on an SA is if you can get it to 8 (ideally 10 if it's an in position SA). That doesn't mean SAs suck below 8. It just means don't waste your time on the AEQ for that SA, it is a bad decision based on opportunity costs.
Impressive math and logic. Exept... you know... there's one question not answered:
What exactly is the price of something you can't buy?
(take your time, because obviously you never thought of this before)
Bort announced, that the higher you take a SA, the less it adds to the existing bonus / chance. According to that, what's better: getting from 0 to 4, from 4 to 8 or from 8 to 12?
...................
BORT NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING.
what he DID say one time in a thread was that once a special ability is above 10, there are diminishing returns. for example:
let's say that one point in "shed block" is actually "+2% of blocks are shed." so at 10, you're shedding +20% of all blocks
when you put on custom/advanced equipment, and it's at 11, then the 11th point might only yield "+1.5% of blocks are shed." get it? therefore, the effort put into getting one attribute to 16 should instead be put into getting two attributes to 9 or 10.
RAPB
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Originally posted by Doug_Plank
hmmmm
yeah seems like a hold block or other SA would be better for my OT
Totally up to you. I'm still happy with the First Step pieces I got for my OTs.
...and I'm sure, Octowned still wouldn't touch a First Step piece for his o-line.
hmmmm
yeah seems like a hold block or other SA would be better for my OT
Totally up to you. I'm still happy with the First Step pieces I got for my OTs.
...and I'm sure, Octowned still wouldn't touch a First Step piece for his o-line.
RisingChaos
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I haven't been satisfied with my First Step piece but I keep it anyway because I don't have much of a choice to swap any more. Also, it only costs 48 Bonus Tokens to upgrade an AEQ piece to a +4 SA, not 64 tokens.
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