Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Xars
Center? Do you mean the RG against the RO?

All it takes is a high footwork RG with good Pass Awareness which, if you're a primarily Pass O you should have.

If the D spams Over Will, you should get a lot of HB and RG pickups on the RO. The rattled mechanic actually works as intended against that play.

Look at UM's sack statistics versus LZBoys.

RG tries to take him quite often, you're right, but sometimes it's the C which is even crazier. If there were real blocking assignments the LT should take him. There are 5 blitzers and 5 olineman on that play, it should be really really simple, the rattled RB shouldnt even need to block.

We adapted to the broken and abusive plays like everyone else has and do fine with them, I'm just using that play as an example of how bad blocking is, there are plenty of others.

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
i agree oline logic is retarded vs certain blitzes but i was addressing the unblockable part.

I'll put it another way, sometimes G or C will figure it out (which is often a hurry still), sometimes he'll just run free, but the reason over will gets spammed and often works is because it abuses poor blocking logic.

Originally posted by Fumblerooski
I'll put it another way, sometimes G or C will figure it out (which is often a hurry still), sometimes he'll just run free, but the reason over will gets spammed and often works is because it abuses poor blocking logic.

yea i agree it was the same issue with elusive des and run blocking till they fixed it a season ago

Originally posted by Fumblerooski
I'll put it another way, sometimes G or C will figure it out (which is often a hurry still), sometimes he'll just run free, but the reason over will gets spammed and often works is because it abuses poor blocking logic.

Mostly disagree. Let's look at two examples. S13 and S14 Ladder games between LZBoys and Whoville.

Ex 1: In S13, with JR Bautista in the season in which he set the Vet Sack record, Whoville spammed Over Will 68 times against LZB. Results: 2 sacks. First came on the first play of the game. After that, 1 sack on 67 plays. LZB had a 10 yd Big Play % of 35.3% and put up 35 points.

Ex 2: In S14, without JR and mixing in Nickel C1 TE Smother, Over Will was spammed 39 times for 1 sack and a 10yd Big Play % of 43.6% and an overall completion% of 59%. In that game, TE Smother was the better D play as it only game up a 35.5% completion rate and 29% 10 yd Big Play%. LZB scored 28 points.

In S15, there are 13 different running plays that average over 4.84 yards per play against Over Will. The 10yd Big Play % for rushing plays is 30.96% (vs. 27.34% for Passing). The RG and TE get one-on-one matchups with the LO and SS. It's why Strong side runs work well.

On Over Will the MLB blitzes too. It's why the assignments are DE-LT, MLB-LG, NT-C. The RO is supposed to get picked up by the HB if he's blitzing. Or the RG can slide weak. Even in the NFL, the OLine doesn't shift like you are wanting the lineman in GLB2 to shift.

What specifically do you want? If the RG takes the DE leaving the LT to take the RO, you'd need the C to take the blitzing MLB or the HB to move past the QB and protect the interior of the pocket. If the C takes the MLB, the RG needs to pickup the NT. That's a positioning mismatch for the RG to handle. He would have to push the DT to the Weak side. This would allow the MLB to stunt back to the Strong side attacking the gap the RG has created and forcing the HB to move up in the pocket, see around the DT-RG weak side push and pickup the MLB at the RG position. So if the C takes on the DT head on, then you have the HB left to block the MLB at the LG gap. You're relying on a HB (not a blocking FB) to take on a MLB at the front tip of the pocket. This is a much harder block to make. The far easier block is for the HB to pickup the RO and simply force him into a bigger arc behind the QB who should be able to step up and/or slide to the Strong side and easily avoid the pressure.

You never, ever, ever want the inside of the pocket to collapse. You want the edge rushers pushed to a bigger outside arc and the QB to step up into the pocket to make the throw. This creates better vision for the QB and a throwing lane. Furthermore, this is taught in high school and continued through the NFL. The only time this isn't done is when there are designed QB rollouts of the pocket.

I really don't see the problem with the GLB2 blocking scheme. What I see are build issues. Pure Passing teams should have the builds to handle Over Will. LZB easily handled Over Will. There were only 1-2 teams that could use it effectively and even that effectiveness was limited. Balanced teams who skew their OLine builds to Run blocking shouldn't be in situations where Over Will can dominate the Passing play they've called. If you are, then quite frankly, you deserved it.

I'm not a football coach so fine, there are 6 guys blitzing and 5 olinemen, so the HB makes the most sense for blocking RO.

Okay, but it only works part of the time due to the randomness of rattled. If you could assign HB to block RO 100% of the time what you are saying would be fine (in GLB1 you could do this and it worked well), or have TE block RDE every time and have everyone else shift over like I was proposing above that would also work. You can't do that though, so the 100 sprinting RO runs free quite often. You also might take some sacks to get the rattled rolling, which can mean you're already in a morale spiral and you're already toast.

Your other response is basically "fix your builds", does that mean:

1) We should be forced to be 100% run or 100% pass offense, since balanced teams cant invest enough for their blocking to work we should never make them. 60/40 run teams really just have to give up on long 3WR throwing due to over will like you propose above
2) Blocking should be totally broken until vet when builds finish, rookies and sophomores especially are just fucked

You shouldnt have to have perfect builds just to execute a simple blocking scheme, it feels like you are proposing that above. Everything you say above is possible for top teams to execute, but why should it be so hard, it should be one of the easiest things in the game to do.

I regret bringing up over will at all because it was just a bad example of my overall points, it feels like all the responses have been (from everyone except you, Xars) "LOL over will is fine, so the whole game is fine!" No, it really isn't.

We're talking balance now which I dont really care about.

Originally posted by Fumblerooski
Your other response is basically "fix your builds", does that mean:

1) We should be forced to be 100% run or 100% pass offense, since balanced teams cant invest enough for their blocking to work we should never make them. 60/40 run teams really just have to give up on long 3WR throwing due to over will like you propose above
2) Blocking should be totally broken until vet when builds finish, rookies and sophomores especially are just fucked

You shouldnt have to have perfect builds just to execute a simple blocking scheme, it feels like you are proposing that above. Everything you say above is possible for top teams to execute, but why should it be so hard, it should be one of the easiest things in the game to do.



I'm not suggesting 100% pure offenses. It's always going to be harder to build a Balanced Offense, but the rewards should be greater. That's currently debatable in terms of efficacy, but I think Bort/Cdog are clear on their intent that Balanced O should be better than Pure so that the game isn't a spam fest.

I don't like the TE blocking the RDE unless that is truly controllable. I wouldn't say that the Tactics check boxes are an indication of control, however. And even if the TE can pickup the RDE, if the OLine is sliding, then the RG is getting the NT, no? That just seems to be a bad match-up to me.

My comment means two things: The first is that player builds need to be done right. The second is that play calling needs to be done right.

On LZB, my Scatback HB spent 41,280 SP (per Stobie's tool) on Pass Block Tech / Pass Block Power / Pass Block Awareness / Block Consistency. That's about 20% of his SPs. I don't know anything about Salty's builds, but I don't think it's a problem if 20% of SPs get put into blocking for a HB to pickup the Blitz. Of course, it diminishes his running ability but again, the value of a Balanced O should be in play calling and not builds. And the game should reward play calling. That's what the diversity bonus is there for. Who knows though if it's a strong enough effect.

If you're a Balanced O and it's 3rd and 14, Over Will is going to kick your ass if you choose to Pass. I'd argue that it almost should. If it's 3rd and 3, then it shouldn't. I can understand the hate for it if this is the argument. It shouldn't pressure teh QB so much so quickly if the Offense only needs a quick 3 yard reception. (This brings up the shitty completion % of Short Passing, but I digress.)

Over Will is OP against teams that can't handle the fast RO. But it's not OP against teams that are prepared for it. AND it has a definitive weakness. Of the 13 running plays that I mentioned above, there's a nice mix of Inside/Off Tackle/Outside.

Once the QB gets rattled, the HB should pickup the RO most times. Nothing should work every time (because even in the NFL there are OLine blocking mistakes). Once the HB picks up the RO, then you have 6 blockers against 5 rushers. The RG is free to roam and protect the QB against any free DLineman or rollout with the QB to the Strong side and move the pocket.

The biggest problem in dealing with Over Will (IMHO) isn't the OLine blocking assignments. It's the lack of a TRIPS formation play that has the TE running a 5-8 yard flat/out against a LO/SS man cover scheme. That's the obvious audible for a real NFL team and that play doesn't exist in GLB2.

TRIPS Left Hooks has the makings of it, but the TE runs too deep before cutting. You don't need a 15 yard out. You want a sprint to the sideline at an angle so the catch is made 5-8 yards downfield, the TE catches in stride and out runs the LO/SS for a few more yards.

Or imagine TRIPS WR Drags where the TE is doing a 5 yard out to the Strong Side, with WR3 dragging behind him. The first read would be the TE, but if the LO/SS go for a double, then the WR3 drag should have plenty of empty space for a catch and turn up field.

Those would be solid play calls. They're missing.

That's the real problem (IMHO).

I'm not as interested in how strong it is or isn't in the context of this conversation overall, balance is much less important to me than the other obvious broken mechanics that both you and I have pointed out earlier. The game is what it is and we'll deal with it.

If I were to actually look at the numbers though, I'd try to see how it does against all teams overall. If there's an obvious strategy that you can spam, but only a small handful of teams can actually deal with it, I'd argue that's bad for the game. If we're writing out paragraphs and paragraphs on something as simple as blocking assignments, doesn't that mean it's too complected for the average player? 3rd and 14 should be low percentage, but saying that it should be an auto sack unless you have perfect builds and know exactly what plays to call is too punishing for the average player.

Yeah, more plays would be a big help.

Originally posted by Xars
Mostly disagree. Let's look at two examples. S13 and S14 Ladder games between LZBoys and Whoville.

Ex 1: In S13, with JR Bautista in the season in which he set the Vet Sack record, Whoville spammed Over Will 68 times against LZB. Results: 2 sacks. First came on the first play of the game. After that, 1 sack on 67 plays. LZB had a 10 yd Big Play % of 35.3% and put up 35 points.



I am still dumbfounded how defenses spam anything. They always mirror offensive play calling. 150 plays out of the 3WR set in season 13 and 145 were passes. Was I suppose to throw in some run based play just for kicks?

Whoville's strategy was never about getting sacks. It was all about hurries and making you get completions of less than 10 yards a couple times a drive.

Game one JR had 27 hurries and you were held to a 50% completion rate. It was all about getting 2 incompletions and a hurried throw under 10 yards in a set of downs. Example...
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/223323/1562420

Game 2 JR had 17 hurries with similar results.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/226928/2415599

Unrelated but both games ended with super clutch catches by Czech Downe. I actually felt bad about your luck.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/223323/1562804
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/226928/2416878

Originally posted by _OSIRIS_
I am still dumbfounded how defenses spam anything. They always mirror offensive play calling. 150 plays out of the 3WR set in season 13 and 145 were passes. Was I suppose to throw in some run based play just for kicks?

Whoville's strategy was never about getting sacks. It was all about hurries and making you get completions of less than 10 yards a couple times a drive.

Game one JR had 27 hurries and you were held to a 50% completion rate. It was all about getting 2 incompletions and a hurried throw under 10 yards in a set of downs. Example...
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/223323/1562420

Game 2 JR had 17 hurries with similar results.
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/226928/2415599

Unrelated but both games ended with super clutch catches by Czech Downe. I actually felt bad about your luck.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/223323/1562804
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/226928/2416878

Lol... God no.

You ran what you should have.

Originally posted by Xars
On LZB, my Scatback HB spent 41,280 SP (per Stobie's tool) on Pass Block Tech / Pass Block Power / Pass Block Awareness / Block Consistency. That's about 20% of his SPs.

I'm not even sure you need to spend that much SP on blocking to stop the ROLB blitz. Most pure blitz LBs I have seen have zero investment in PRT and related skills, and even if they do, I'm not sure it matters. You really just need the awareness for the HB to attempt the block. That alone buys enough time for the QB to make the throw and avoid the sack.

Just watching those same games you referenced being involved with Whoville, even if JR blew up your HB instantly, just the fact that he wasn't running free bought enough time for your QB to throw. Some of that was your play calling style to encourage quick throws via route selection in the first place.

If you really wanted to go lean on the HB blocking investment, I would put nothing in power and only a little in tech and con, maybe even nothing, and just get awareness up to a decent level.

A better example might be run blocking fullbacks. Even if they are veteran tier and are loaded up on lead block awareness and run block awareness, they still block the wrong guy, or nobody at all quite frequently. Should they have to have 90 plus lead blocking awareness just to find someone to block on a sweep or counter?

fwiw I ratcheted up Lead Block Awr once to about 90 on a FB, and it made him significantly worse at blocking. Almost every time he would cut inside to go block some LB across the field (usually not even making it to the block), instead of following his path to the outside. Lead Block Awr seems to work like a bubble around the player, so extending it can have undesired effects. Which is obviously dumb. Somewhere around 50s LBA seems to be the right amount for how the game plays.

My biggest complaint with blocking is how they steal blocks from each other. I'll see 2 OL essentially passing a DL back and forth while another guy goes completely unblocked. The FB will stop his path to the outside and steal an OL block if the guy slightly breaks free at just the right time. Very very frustrating to watch.

Seems like there needs to be more nuance between "fully engaged in a block" and "completely unblocked". You see the same issue with runners taking a path directly through a block sometimes. They seem to see wide open space because the guy is blocked, but of course they frequently get tackled while running through it. Sometimes they even stop right on the block because the guy starts to break free and the runner doesn't know where to go.

Originally posted by Spastic_Cowboy
fwiw I ratcheted up Lead Block Awr once to about 90 on a FB, and it made him significantly worse at blocking. Almost every time he would cut inside to go block some LB across the field (usually not even making it to the block), instead of following his path to the outside. Lead Block Awr seems to work like a bubble around the player, so extending it can have undesired effects. Which is obviously dumb. Somewhere around 50s LBA seems to be the right amount for how the game plays.

My biggest complaint with blocking is how they steal blocks from each other. I'll see 2 OL essentially passing a DL back and forth while another guy goes completely unblocked. The FB will stop his path to the outside and steal an OL block if the guy slightly breaks free at just the right time. Very very frustrating to watch.

Seems like there needs to be more nuance between "fully engaged in a block" and "completely unblocked". You see the same issue with runners taking a path directly through a block sometimes. They seem to see wide open space because the guy is blocked, but of course they frequently get tackled while running through it. Sometimes they even stop right on the block because the guy starts to break free and the runner doesn't know where to go.

They just need to have assignments, same with pass blocking. It's probably too complicated to code into the game at this point, when it isnt getting much attention.

yay, I made it to Vet

Congrats on the league championship and potential #1 or #2 ladder trophy Salty. It was a good season for you guys.