Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Primate
Crazy high EL's.

It's been done: http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=578

You can most certainly get away with 2 AEQ on certain positions, namely OL for sure, but for most it is nothing more than a major mistake not to go at least 3.

Originally posted by Sellars
You can most certainly get away with 2 AEQ on certain positions, namely OL for sure, but for most it is nothing more than a major mistake not to go at least 3.

I think your statement is pretty much the consensus. I've found there are one or two positions, that just can't be done with a 2AEQ, but with "specialty builds" you can produce superior Dots. Not that the two primary attributes will be any better than a standard 3 or 4 AEQ build, but the remainder of the attributes will be higher. It is also my belief that 3AEQ does not hold any edge on 2AEQ. My position on this statement rides on one thing only, we have been running with one piece, some with none, while most of our competition's dots are riding with two or three and I've not seen anything to indicate an impact by that difference. The question is, will 4 AEQ present too big a difference? The story isn't complete on that yet, but that's the whole gamble, will the higher skill point total in some attributes out perform the extra AEQ.

Originally posted by Dr. E
I think your statement is pretty much the consensus. I've found there are one or two positions, that just can't be done with a 2AEQ, but with "specialty builds" you can produce superior Dots. Not that the two primary attributes will be any better than a standard 3 or 4 AEQ build, but the remainder of the attributes will be higher. It is also my belief that 3AEQ does not hold any edge on 2AEQ. My position on this statement rides on one thing only, we have been running with one piece, some with none, while most of our competition's dots are riding with two or three and I've not seen anything to indicate an impact by that difference. The question is, will 4 AEQ present too big a difference? The story isn't complete on that yet, but that's the whole gamble, will the higher skill point total in some attributes out perform the extra AEQ.

If 3 AE is not better than 2 AE, then why would 4 AE be better? The 4th AE is usually a reduced bonus since it is usually a double or triple stack. Also, the EL difference between a 3 AE and 4 AE dot is significantly larger than the difference in a 3 AE and a 2 AE dot.

I am not a believer in 2 AE, but I am not going to go all Bolick and act like my opinion is 100% right. It is just my opinion based on my own observations. However, if you believe that 2 AE is better than 3 AE, then I would argue that it would have to be better than 4 AE.

Originally posted by Dr. E
It is also my belief that 3AEQ does not hold any edge on 2AEQ.

Well that is simply false with pretty much every single Def dot. DT gains so little from secondary attribs that the loss of a second MT% piece or a 3rd BB% piece is not made up by going 2 AEQ. DE, similar story, pass rushers need SPD/AGL/STR and gain almost nothing performance wise outside of those 3, extra training not enough to offset some MT% or BB%(Even an SA which rushers need lots of). LBers, cover want MT/AF/PD and u could argue some extra STR/TKL from the longer training, this is probably the only slot on def it could even work for however. HH LBer, na 3 is the way to go. DB's LOL no chance 2 AEQ is > 3 or 4. On offense however u could probably make a case since dots dont need as many differing % pieces. I am certainly curious to see how a build works out and best of luck I just think your selling your dots short by not having enough gear, on def more specifically. I make almost exclusivly 3 AEQ atm, im just not good at 4 AEQ dots and have never tried 2 AEQ.

Originally posted by Plankton
If 3 AE is not better than 2 AE, then why would 4 AE be better? The 4th AE is usually a reduced bonus since it is usually a double or triple stack. Also, the EL difference between a 3 AE and 4 AE dot is significantly larger than the difference in a 3 AE and a 2 AE dot.

I am not a believer in 2 AE, but I am not going to go all Bolick and act like my opinion is 100% right. It is just my opinion based on my own observations. However, if you believe that 2 AE is better than 3 AE, then I would argue that it would have to be better than 4 AE.

I"m assuming the 4th piece would bring on some ability that having just three wouldn't. As I said, this story hasn't finished being written. It could be the trend I've seen as the dots age completely reverses and we get stuck bouncing back and fourth between cleaning clocks in Pro and getting our bell wrung in WL like so many teams do. But for anyone who wants to take the time to look, the stats show a clear trend , us getting better against the same competition as out dots builds grow.

Oh yea. If anyone is wanting to watch the builds, looks like I need a good DE to replace an inactive Agent.

Originally posted by Sellars
Well that is simply false with pretty much every single Def dot. DT gains so little from secondary attribs that the loss of a second MT% piece or a 3rd BB% piece is not made up by going 2 AEQ. DE, similar story, pass rushers need SPD/AGL/STR and gain almost nothing performance wise outside of those 3, extra training not enough to offset some MT% or BB%(Even an SA which rushers need lots of). LBers, cover want MT/AF/PD and u could argue some extra STR/TKL from the longer training, this is probably the only slot on def it could even work for however. HH LBer, na 3 is the way to go. DB's LOL no chance 2 AEQ is > 3 or 4. On offense however u could probably make a case since dots dont need as many differing % pieces. I am certainly curious to see how a build works out and best of luck I just think your selling your dots short by not having enough gear, on def more specifically. I make almost exclusivly 3 AEQ atm, im just not good at 4 AEQ dots and have never tried 2 AEQ.

One thing you can't know, our 2AEQ method isn't the same as those others, we don't spend our BT on skill points. We enhance attributes *5. This does two things, it allows those that want to break off the last season to get enough BT for a third piece of AEQ, some are. Secondly, and most important, it allows the builder to stop putting skill points into an attribute earlier. For example, in a classic build, the builder runs that first attribute to 81+. We go to 73, some a bit higher, depending on their likes. In both a 4 & 3 AEQ builds and 2AEQ builds, come end build, that first attribute is the same, higher in 2AEQ if the builder took it higher than 73. That allows the builder to change sooner and so the second attribute, can easily end higher than a standard 3 or 4 AEQ build. Certainly, the third & fourth attributes worked on will be much higher. It's a trade off on those % pieces of equipment, gambling the higher skill point totals in the attributes worked later can out perform the small % total gained by having that third one stacked. Little caveat. I"m talking Dots on the average. There are always exceptions that run an attribute to crazy levels, as seen on some QBs and throwing. Those dots taken to crazy levels generally fail.

I have been building 2 AEQ O&D dots for quite a while now. Its all I do and your welcome to take a look at all of them.

Originally posted by Dr. E
One thing you can't know, our 2AEQ method isn't the same as those others, we don't spend our BT on skill points. We enhance attributes *5. This does two things, it allows those that want to break off the last season to get enough BT for a third piece of AEQ, some are. Secondly, and most important, it allows the builder to stop putting skill points into an attribute earlier. For example, in a classic build, the builder runs that first attribute to 81+. We go to 73, some a bit higher, depending on their likes. In both a 4 & 3 AEQ builds and 2AEQ builds, come end build, that first attribute is the same, higher in 2AEQ if the builder took it higher than 73. That allows the builder to change sooner and so the second attribute, can easily end higher than a standard 3 or 4 AEQ build. Certainly, the third & fourth attributes worked on will be much higher. It's a trade off on those % pieces of equipment, gambling the higher skill point totals in the attributes worked later can out perform the small % total gained by having that third one stacked. Little caveat. I"m talking Dots on the average. There are always exceptions that run an attribute to crazy levels, as seen on some QBs and throwing. Those dots taken to crazy levels generally fail.

This is how I and some other WL builders build dots tho. 50% enhancing training is not unique to your team. When I was working out my build strategy many seasons ago, I tried just continuing to multi-train until plateau and found that the build was not that much better, and that losing 3 in my primary and a % bonus was a bigger loss than the gain from the extra multi-training. If you are not multi-training that last season, then the gain from 2 AE is even less.

If I were making a prediction, I would guess that you will probably do as you say...do very well in Nat Pro and struggle in WL. However, the launch of GLB2 and the general malaise of the GLB community as a whole may make it so that you do better in WL than I expect. Only time will tell. I give you credit for trying to your own path tho.

Originally posted by Brewster
I have been building 2 AEQ O&D dots for quite a while now. Its all I do and your welcome to take a look at all of them.

Since you brought it up, let's have a look...

Before we start, here is some background info. Zombie Apocalypse was a last minute idea that started as a place to house a one or two dozen dots that we wanted to build as we felt our original Walking Dead roster had a few holes or builds that we were concerned might not work. Fast was able to quickly recruit a full team of players tho, so we have run it as we would any farm team.....builds are 100% plateau focused (i.e. we are all holding VPs as we know we will need more than 15 reset points next season) but we try to win without doing anything other than tagging. The build plans were not as coordinated on ZA as they were on WD, and thus not all of our builds are indicative of what we have on WD. As a result, I am going to compare the dots that I know are built to our standards and will be moving to WD. You can find some builds that are not as good on ZA, but those may not make it to WD and thus are not really relevant to this discussion.

Back to our regularly scheduled conversation....let's have a look:

---------------

Your 2 AE DT - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4380410 - SP Value = 1320
Our 3 AE DT - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4381779 - SP Value = 1317

Your 2 AE FS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4380430 - SP Value = 1264
Our 3 AE FS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4389167 - SP Value = 1266

Your 2 AE SS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4380456 - SP Value = 1308
Our 3 AE SS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4376167 - SP Value = 1329

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I am not going to go thru every single dot, as I think those make my point. We should all be light training now to get our last piece of AE. If we got lucky with shopping, we might still be multi-training tho. Worst case, even if we are light training and you are multi-training, I can't imagine you will gain more than 20-30 SPs on our builds since there is not even a full season of training left to do. However, we will have 3 more points in a primary attribute and an extra bonus.

we can see where they will be at the end. Just looking at El isnt going to give you the best idea of how the dots play but if thats all you want to compare it to then there is no pointThe FS is a STOP so is built not as a FS for the most part.

DT will be 1377

SS will be 1502

CB's and LB will be around 1530

Originally posted by Plankton
Since you brought it up, let's have a look...

Before we start, here is some background info. Zombie Apocalypse was a last minute idea that started as a place to house a one or two dozen dots that we wanted to build as we felt our original Walking Dead roster had a few holes or builds that we were concerned might not work. Fast was able to quickly recruit a full team of players tho, so we have run it as we would any farm team.....builds are 100% plateau focused (i.e. we are all holding VPs as we know we will need more than 15 reset points next season) but we try to win without doing anything other than tagging. The build plans were not as coordinated on ZA as they were on WD, and thus not all of our builds are indicative of what we have on WD. As a result, I am going to compare the dots that I know are built to our standards and will be moving to WD. You can find some builds that are not as good on ZA, but those may not make it to WD and thus are not really relevant to this discussion.

Back to our regularly scheduled conversation....let's have a look:

---------------

Your 2 AE DT - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4380410 - SP Value = 1320
Our 3 AE DT - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4381779 - SP Value = 1317

Your 2 AE FS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4380430 - SP Value = 1264
Our 3 AE FS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4389167 - SP Value = 1266

Your 2 AE SS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4380456 - SP Value = 1308
Our 3 AE SS - http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4376167 - SP Value = 1329

-----------

I am not going to go thru every single dot, as I think those make my point. We should all be light training now to get our last piece of AE. If we got lucky with shopping, we might still be multi-training tho. Worst case, even if we are light training and you are multi-training, I can't imagine you will gain more than 20-30 SPs on our builds since there is not even a full season of training left to do. However, we will have 3 more points in a primary attribute and an extra bonus.

The FS is a STOP. The FS that best achieved what was asked for is the one for Malchesis, (that's my son by the way).

Your point on the builds being so close that we would lose out from the lack of the extra AEQ is valid, except, I posted at rebuild goals for the Builders to achieve based on my understanding of what it would take to maximize my O & D AI. Sometimes this meant pushing a minor before a major attribute. This isn't true with all positions, but a good number of them. So their effective level may be a bit lower than you would otherwise see from a 2AEQ build, those are sometimes out the roof, but ineffective on the field against top dots and coordinators who can recognize their weak spots. Take my OT I'll paste in below, he's a pass blocking archetype, they have a far better choice of VA and SA for stacking, but their lack of strength creates a weak spot, so I asked strength be trained first. I used pass blocking archetypes because they would never have to run block, single one purpose dot, keep the blitzer off the QB.
(Note on him: he's a speed experiment, seeing how low he can be and still be effective. Up until this season's start, his speed was below 33. Plenty of skill points left to raise it should I feel he's a failure against top dots).

Ht/Wt: 6'6", 320lbs

Experience, Skill Points, and Cash
Money: $0
Daily Salary: $6800
Skill Points: 2
Training Points: 6
Bonus Tokens: 21
Veteran Points: 0
Next Level: 950/1000

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 97.02
Speed: 49.02
Agility: 145.63 (+52)
Jumping: 10
Stamina: 32.02
Vision: 79.63
Confidence: 58.63

Football Skills
Blocking: 89.63
Catching: 8
Tackling: 8
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 8
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Pass Blocking Abilities
Pass Block: 10
Shock Block: 9
Foundation: 1
Absorb Pain: 1
Protector: 9
Additional Abilities
Spot Blitz: 10
Veteran Abilities
Quick: 3
Max Protect: 15
Pass Blocker: 15
Pocket Defender: 15
Stonewall: 15

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Agility: +0.84
Hold block chance: +18%

Originally posted by Brewster

DT will be 1377



Surely that is a typo. 1377 is bad for a 3 AE dot, much less a 2 AE dot. A 2 AE DT should be pushing 1600.

Originally posted by Plankton
Surely that is a typo. 1377 is bad for a 3 AE dot, much less a 2 AE dot. A 2 AE DT should be pushing 1600.

Yea, I think it was. Can't recall any of his previous DTs below the high 1400s. I say with confidence, he's the best 2AEQ builder in the game.

FWIW, I understand and agree (to a point) on your argument about EL. EL alone is not a perfect indicator of build quality, as you can get a high EL by pumping the wrong attributes and neglecting important attributes. Case in point:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4294647 - my blitz CB. He has 6 SAs that are 8+, and thus had to stop spending on attributes earlier than most would. This resulted in a lower SP value than I would normally get in a CB, but a better build for his purpose.

However, in my experience, getting more SP value is the only logical reason to go 2 AE. I would bet that I can achieve any sub 1520 SP build that you can do with 2 AE but do it with 3 AE just by adjusting your training enhancements, cap goals, and cap orders. If that is the case, choosing not to go 3 AE is choosing to handicap yourself.

If you are willing, send me the end build for one of your 4 major positions. I would like to see if I am right.

It is nice when people can have differing opinions, can discuss their viewpoints and not resort to name calling and getting upset. Thanks for the interesting debate guys. You guys rock!