Warrior General Games

Originally posted by David Stern

Go back to your "original plan" (vision)

Yes 95% of the game would be happy without finances- - But the more I look at it, its just another va/aeq modifier that puts everyone on equal ground. It will be fine. people will adapt, and it doesn't negatively effect the community.

I think now that it has been explained in much greater detail people will be ok with that last change.

Yup, and I still stand by my stance that once owners get to see the proposed changes on screen they will be way less overwhelmed....Like I told a few of my team forums....it may take a paragraph to explain 1 click....once the UI was built all these chances wouldnt havelooked near as bad.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader

That's ok, they're still making that part up as they go along.

I love Bort and Catch, but just "winging it" isn't the best business model, particularly so when the folks involved have exclusive control of the "Post" button when it comes to "Announcements".

Didn't really wing it. We talked over the concerns/complaints and tried to figure out a compromise. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we include the pre-game starting morale being impacted by salary, people are going to riot. If we do it based on effective level, people are going to riot. The only thing that seems would make every one happy is to just get rid of salaries, cash, and stadiums. That seems kind of stupid to me.

Originally posted by David Stern
Change is good. We're getting to the middle ground dude. We just gotta hope bort doesn't make a rage taco bell run

I think Catch went, haven't seen him post in a while lol

Nevermind

Originally posted by sjmay
Holy double Batman,

I agree with Stern for once in my life, I might shoot myself now.

It's all about perception.

LOL, probably true. Perception i suppose.

yeah I heard of this crap before.. it is called spread the wealth right? got to ump some great players for alright players maybe even crappy players to make the cap? so guess I will go ahead a retire most of my players next season

A wise developer in another game that I have played used to say this when faced with complaints about parity:

"We can balance the classes and skills, but we can't balance the people playing them."

This push for artificial parity is very concerning to me. The only way to truly ensure parity is to remove the player skill from the game. However, then it is essentially just a coin flip. The best team/player builders and gameplanners will always do better, and no matter how you tweak finances, training, or whatever, that will always be the case, unless you make every team, gameplan, and player equal.

Originally posted by sjmay
In all fairness, pretty sure they didn't go in thinking this was a worse change, they thought it was more of a middle ground.

Pretty much...except it isn't.

A = Current System
B = First concept
C = New revision

A------------------B
\
_\
__\
___\
____\
_____C

Originally posted by blln4lyf
Originally posted by David Stern

Originally posted by Bort


LOL, no winning I guess?

Current system: doesn't work.
Original idea: too complicated somehow
New idea: not complicated enough?


Originally posted by ijg


tbh Catch, I'm a lot more bothered by the training requiring a PhD than the finances which are a once/season thing. That said, I think a lot of the angst is over the complexity. The salary cap is fine and the team promotions seem fine.

The drags are the deterioration and stadium maintenance which is just forcing people to do math for no reason and then the magnitude of the morale impact. So, I would suggest the following.

1) eliminate deterioration and refurbishment.
2) bump up morale impact of salary (Pro example) to 60% for bottom 25%, 75% for middle 50% (-25-75%) and 90% for top 25%. That makes it simpler to manage and less punitive.
3) Keep promotions and seasonal bonuses. Dump the permanent bonuses.

Those three things would reduce a ton of the complexity and I think still meet the goals of having a) $ mean something, b) a salary cap as an equalizer for recruiting, and c) make morale meaningful but not all consuming.

This post was a simple solution to fix the problems you had with the first suggestion. But hell I'd much rather have the first suggestion over this current change.

That's something I'd get behind as well.

So it sounds like we have an opportunity to forge consensus around the original plan, but with morale bonuses instead of penalties. I know the numbers need tweaking, but it's a good chance for everyone to get what they want.

Originally posted by Plankton
A wise developer in another game that I have played used to say this when faced with complaints about parity:

"We can balance the classes and skills, but we can't balance the people playing them."

This push for artificial parity is very concerning to me. The only way to truly ensure parity is to remove the player skill from the game. However, then it is essentially just a coin flip. The best team/player builders and gameplanners will always do better, and no matter how you tweak finances, training, or whatever, that will always be the case, unless you make every team, gameplan, and player equal.

That is a great quote. Very true.

Originally posted by Deathblade
Pretty much...except it isn't.

A = Current System
B = First concept
C = New revision

A------------------B
\
_\
__\
___\
____\
_____C


I agree, I just don't think they went in with the mindset that they were gonna make it worse lol

Originally posted by Sarg01
So it sounds like we have an opportunity to forge consensus around the original plan, but with morale bonuses instead of penalties. I know the numbers need tweaking, but it's a good chance for everyone to get what they want.

Last time I had "consensus" in a thread and went to bed, there was no longer consensus when I woke up.

I commend the financial plan and support it. It gives a nice depth to this game. To me the biggest problem is being overlooked. League caps are still off tilt in my opinion. When a team is promoted from minors cap 46, the next group of competition is a mess of mis-matched competition. In the same league (uncapped and up) you can find teams with level 45's and teams with level 60's plus and everything in between. There needs to be a continued ladder of progression from level 46 capped leagues. Something that can keep teams that have been through the struggles of the minors, together. Seems like when we get 3-4 seasons in, there has to be a major change of the roster to remain competitive. Friends fall off and fail to stay in the game.

The free agent market is also way screwed up. But that is mostly because of the uncapped and up leagues paying god loads of cash to a level 45 OT to be a back up. I'm not sure if a draft system can be implemented, but I feel some kind of system needs to be explored where it is encouraged to have similar leveled players on a team of same said levels. The recruitment problems are enough for me and my GLB friends to step away from this really unique and fun game.

I am apart of several teams that have struggled to stay together with the same group of friends (both from real world and met through GLB). When a promotion forces a team to almost completely gut its-self to be competitive, that takes away a lot of enjoyment that we play this game for. The mighty dollar can't be SOO blind and greedy that it fails to see what makes this game fun and addictive to many of us. The Friends we make and continue to have, here on GLB.