Warrior General Games

Originally posted by BoDiddley
I'm fine with some measures to adjust to all-pass or all-run offenses. Things for me go back to what you just said a few posts earlier though, "If you want builds and gameplanning to matter they actually have to matter.". GLB2 had always rewarded great builds that blended well with gameplanning in the past, but that's not the case right now. A 97 tech/97 acc/99 cons QB build should be able to pass on medium pass plays to a 97 catch in traffic TE without throwing a ton of picks, otherwise there's no point. Dream's current gameplan was made to specifically lower the risk of ints once deep passing got nixed, but there's no way to avoid them when RNG factors into things so much now. If the TE had bad CiT, then it would be a build issue and fine. Then you have our WR with first step and the ability to get a sliver of separation who's rewarded with DBs grabbing ints while trailing despite being steps behind(this is where pass power actually hurts the QB).

Same goes for the defensive side of the ball. DBs should get more ints in double coverage situations and less in one on one. Those who invest in the INT SP should get rewarded more, and those builds with low INT should be getting a lot less RNG picks. Not to come down on you Corndog, just being honest about what I see with the sim.

Not all Medium Pass plays are equal.

Plus if the Defense calls a Medium Pass play when you call a Medium Pass, they get bonuses to offset your higher stats.

You need to run tests when you know the data on ball sides of the ball, not just one.

This is why Rob and I ran so many D tests using 2 teams that we managed. Very hard to isiolate the specific issue looking at only one side.

Originally posted by Xars
So Heart effects Fumbles? Interceptions?

Are you just taking here or is this specific to the sim?

Corndog making Friday’s great again!


myricks concern was over the high amount of turnovers. i dont think heart effects fumbles or INTs, but low morale does, so essentially after the 1st fumble or INT, the lower the heart stat the higher the chance of more fumbles/INTs like a snowball effect. i think that was CDs point

Originally posted by BoDiddley
Not everyone wants to do a cookie cutter gameplan though. In Dream's previous run I had a running QB, and used screens a lot(when they actually worked). Variety keeps people interested in the game, whether it be Dream, AA, Empire, Bombers, and so on. And really, builds/gameplanning should dictate play, not RNG nerfs. A 97/97/99 QB shouldn't be throwing picks left and right when he has high Cit WR/TEs. It defeats the purpose of making non-generic builds. This is no different from when HBs with high sprint/quick were staggering around drunk due to balance, or when 99 awareness CBs were getting lost on deep passing.

The answer to all-pass, all-run, and so on, is more defensive plays, and improved mechanics. Not making builds/team system irrelevant. The defensive pathing change is the perfect example of a good fix.

all pass/all run teams are the definition of cookie cutter. you're running pretty much cookie cutter offensive builds and using cookie cutter gameplans.

for example, and let me start by saying that rob is a good friend and imo the best coach ever, but AA's offense was default gameplans all season with tweaks between seasons and sometimes screens added or screens removed. he rarely ever switched anything up because he didnt need to. same for logzilla, air raid, and many of the other pure pass offenses. there was NO diversity in the gameplans because the statistics were if you pass 3x for a 1st down, you are going to convert one of those 3 plays and keep the drive moving. xars has made this point hundreds of times in the past

the ONLY counter to that, is to provide the defense the ability to play tag (enhance the play call) for exactly what type of play you know is coming. i knew playing AA that i was going to see diamond chalice, te drive, wr posts, and 4wr hb pressure/wr posts yet despite all my effort, they still converted well over 50% and put up 40-50ish points. teams were scouting custom gameplans and losing to default gameplans and that's fair? thats why the play tag bonuses were added and now you are seeing the effects of teams being able to properly scout against exactly what plays they know are coming.

im not saying you should throw 7 INTs a game and only be able to put up 7 pts vs a team like hartford, but certainly AA should not have been able to run defaults and put up 50+ vs every team in the game. admin did their best to add balance between the two and now the pure pass or rush teams have to evolve to adapt to the meta (like balance teams had to do for 20ish/30 seasons)

i think the screens need to be fixed regardless but that would greatly help pure pass or run teams. there are still plenty of ways to run a pure pass team effectively, try a scat back and run HB screens (like iform hb screen left which counters coverage defensive plays vs 2wr to keep the defense honest) maybe run designed pass plays to HB because theres a few good ones in the 2TE and 4WR formations, and lastly make use of the new shotgun changes and run more plays from shotgun because some of the passes from the new shotgun formation can turn 2 yd passes into long TDs because the QBs read so quickly and find the most open receiver.

Originally posted by Xars
Not all Medium Pass plays are equal.

Plus if the Defense calls a Medium Pass play when you call a Medium Pass, they get bonuses to offset your higher stats.

You need to run tests when you know the data on ball sides of the ball, not just one.

This is why Rob and I ran so many D tests using 2 teams that we managed. Very hard to isiolate the specific issue looking at only one side.




I don't think medium would do anything defensively to offset anything. You would already have the pass bonus. Medium would just be the cushion the DBs give.

Originally posted by Sov.
all pass/all run teams are the definition of cookie cutter. you're running pretty much cookie cutter offensive builds and using cookie cutter gameplans.

for example, and let me start by saying that rob is a good friend and imo the best coach ever, but AA's offense was default gameplans all season with tweaks between seasons and sometimes screens added or screens removed. he rarely ever switched anything up because he didnt need to. same for logzilla, air raid, and many of the other pure pass offenses. there was NO diversity in the gameplans because the statistics were if you pass 3x for a 1st down, you are going to convert one of those 3 plays and keep the drive moving. xars has made this point hundreds of times in the past

the ONLY counter to that, is to provide the defense the ability to play tag (enhance the play call) for exactly what type of play you know is coming. i knew playing AA that i was going to see diamond chalice, te drive, wr posts, and 4wr hb pressure/wr posts yet despite all my effort, they still converted well over 50% and put up 40-50ish points. teams were scouting custom gameplans and losing to default gameplans and that's fair? thats why the play tag bonuses were added and now you are seeing the effects of teams being able to properly scout against exactly what plays they know are coming.

im not saying you should throw 7 INTs a game and only be able to put up 7 pts vs a team like hartford, but certainly AA should not have been able to run defaults and put up 50+ vs every team in the game. admin did their best to add balance between the two and now the pure pass or rush teams have to evolve to adapt to the meta (like balance teams had to do for 20ish/30 seasons)

i think the screens need to be fixed regardless but that would greatly help pure pass or run teams. there are still plenty of ways to run a pure pass team effectively, try a scat back and run HB screens (like iform hb screen left which counters coverage defensive plays vs 2wr to keep the defense honest) maybe run designed pass plays to HB because theres a few good ones in the 2TE and 4WR formations, and lastly make use of the new shotgun changes and run more plays from shotgun because some of the passes from the new shotgun formation can turn 2 yd passes into long TDs because the QBs read so quickly and find the most open receiver.

The problem here is that running was just fine prior to the balance changes. Run teams actually had to gameplan against any decent team and against GE you couldnt run for your life if you didnt pass.

There can be a design in gameplay where you can make all pass teams need to plan. But just saying hey heres a bonus because you guessed pass is a wet fart for a fix. Especially when HB passing is pretty much garbage.

And i agree 100% with Bo. More plays definitely could help with defending plays. I mean we are in what season of Glb 2 and still dont have the opposite blitzes that are good for stopping strong side run on the weak side. Or the weak/strong side de flat plays outside 4-3.

Originally posted by bhall43
And i agree 100% with Bo. More plays definitely could help with defending plays.

Those magical plays with 18 defenders?

There's only so many ways you can put 5 players in man coverage.

Originally posted by Corndog
Those magical plays with 18 defenders?

There's only so many ways you can put 5 players in man coverage.

Now now cdog...i went through the playbook and thoughtfully considered what has already been made and could be helpful for all the best plays there currently are. None of which have 18 defenders. All of which would have imo been better additions to the sim than play call bonuses for guessing pass or run.

Originally posted by Sov.

- New defensive plays:
- DE Flat plays that also use deep zones (Just like the Dime DE Flat and Quarter DE Flat plays)
- DE Flat Weak/Strong on all the formations
- DE Flat weak/Strong plays that blitz from the other side (Like 4-3 Strong Shift with the RDE Flat)
- 3-4 Cat Blitz Weak
- 3-4 WR2 Smother
- 4-4 Big SS Tiger Blitz
- Nickel C1 WR2 Smother
- Nickel 3-3-5 C1 Lurk Under Fire Weak Blitz
- Nickel 3-3-5 DE Flat plays
- Dime Weak Overload Blitz
- Dime 3 Man Deep (Or Strong/Weak Clouds)

Originally posted by Corndog
Those magical plays with 18 defenders?

There's only so many ways you can put 5 players in man coverage.

No he is saying like the 4-3 play strong shift will stop about any outside run to the right but there isn’t an identical play to the left side so if a team always runs to the left you call it when you gameplan.

You know Corndog....a defensive play editor like GLB1 would solve quite a few things. Just saying, lol.

Originally posted by BoDiddley
You know Corndog....a defensive play editor like GLB1 would solve quite a few things. Just saying, lol.

it would have to be really simplistic. like just being able to shift dline and oline and picking man/zone/blitz/flat. Otherwise it gets overly complicated for anyone new to pick up dcing.

Originally posted by dredgar
No he is saying like the 4-3 play strong shift will stop about any outside run to the right but there isn’t an identical play to the left side so if a team always runs to the left you call it when you gameplan.

And what kind of shift is going to stop "throw it deep"? We already have prevent plays, those weren't working. Maybe three deep coverage defenders? Wasn't working. Some plays with two defenders playing deep? Those weren't working. Some plays with one deep defender? Those weren't working. How about just everyone playing man coverage? that wasn't working either.

There's only so many variations. Doing the same thing from a slightly different formation isn't going to be the difference between losing by 50 and shutting them down.

I mean, I'm not sure how you can "defend deep" more than this play
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/images/tactics/defense_plays/189.jpg

Make up new formations with 6 CBs and no linemen?

Originally posted by Corndog
I mean, I'm not sure how you can "defend deep" more than this play
https://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/images/tactics/defense_plays/189.jpg

Make up new formations with 6 CBs and no linemen?

that actually used to be great for stopping deep passes in certain formations. In fact a lot of people use the other variations of that in strong cloud/weak cloud/mlb cloud. Those were the result of Logzillas all pass run. Same with TE smother plays.

The 4 wr formations deep passing are what essentially what rejuvenated Alaskan Assassins. They would have been fairly defended otherwise with those plays.

I'm not sure how adding new plays is going to fix passing?

The play tag bonuses are not going anywhere. They were dialed back this season and in my opinion they are working great now

CD is trying to say the main "problem" with passing is passing into "pass" play tagged defensive plays (especially 60x a game)

The issue with that though is that the game does not offer many ways for pure pass teams to be able to threaten defenses enough to force them to change away from pass play tags on defensive plays (and vice versa for pure rush teams)

Obviously suggestion #1 for both is screens working correctly. Maybe a better way to force check downs to HB on pass plays? (calling HB primary receiver does not work) Maybe tax stamina on defenders covering deep routes all game? IDK

Originally posted by Corndog
And what kind of shift is going to stop "throw it deep"? We already have prevent plays, those weren't working. Maybe three deep coverage defenders? Wasn't working. Some plays with two defenders playing deep? Those weren't working. Some plays with one deep defender? Those weren't working. How about just everyone playing man coverage? that wasn't working either.

There's only so many variations. Doing the same thing from a slightly different formation isn't going to be the difference between losing by 50 and shutting them down.

DPC please. End this discussion forever.

Originally posted by Corndog
And what kind of shift is going to stop "throw it deep"? We already have prevent plays, those weren't working. Maybe three deep coverage defenders? Wasn't working. Some plays with two defenders playing deep? Those weren't working. Some plays with one deep defender? Those weren't working. How about just everyone playing man coverage? that wasn't working either.

There's only so many variations. Doing the same thing from a slightly different formation isn't going to be the difference between losing by 50 and shutting them down.

3 Deep with a good pass rush actually did decent against AA. But the other half of the equation would be improving the impact of skills like Man/Zone Awareness. The main reason pass plays seem to succeed/fail is do to what position the receiver and pass defender are in. A 90+ Man awareness DB should be in good position for the vast majority of pass plays, and then it comes down to pass quality(acc/tech), receiver skill(CiT/hands), and the DB's ability to disrupt/deflect(defelct/int). If a Speed WR gets separation...he should be rewarded instead of having a Db two steps behind grab an int like he's Deion Sanders. If the DB is in good position, then he should be rewarded with a greater chance to disrupt the pass. It's much like the problem with rush defense before pathing. Defenders didn't take good angles or put themselves in good position before that was fixed. Once you guys made the change it was a night and day difference. Pass defenders don't react to passes well, been that way since forever.

AI improvement, and boosts to pass defense skills based on SP investment makes more sense than RNG nerfs. With better pass awareness and more plays (especially plays that cover the pass well and don't expose you to the outside run), pass defense would actually be effective and still based on builds/gameplans. The Pass defense SAs were a nice touch too, and definitely a move in the right direction.