Warrior General Games

Originally posted by peeti
OK...at least you understood my post! Obviously, my post was about rushing beeing impossible! Thanks for clearing that up for the less educated agents reading in here

You talked about imbalance between rushing and passing. The top rushing plays are averaging almost 6 YPA (5.7 to 5.8) across the tier. It's hard to say there's a big imbalance when Rushing achieves those numbers. And if the imbalance isn't big, then what's the point in complaining about it?

Originally posted by Aeir
You do realize those YPC numbers inflate a LOT over the course of a season though, right?

You might gain 3ish ypc against a good D and 10ish ypc vs a bad D. You'll also have more plays on average vs a bad team because you can typically stop their offense easier.


Yes this is true, but it's also always been true (past seasons) and Passing benefits it as well. With 20,000 plays of data, I think we have a statistically significant sample though.

Here are the Global Averages (YPA) for the 5 Passing Plays LZ Boys run (at Vet):

SB TE Drive 8.26 YPA
SB TRIP WR Posts 7.81 YPA
SG TE Drive 7.23
SB TE Post 6.63 YPA
SB TRIP WR Cross 6.52 YPA

For all 5 plays, it's 75255 yards on 10,199 plays for a YPA of 7.37.

Is there something game breaking when the best Passing plays are at 7.37 YPA and the best Running plays are at (about) 5.75 YPA? Shouldn't Passing be higher on a YPA basis or do they have to equal?

And if the DE Evasive blocking issue gets fixed, wouldn't the YPA of the Outside runs increase? Wouldn't that help close the gap?

What's the right gap considering the distribution of both averages?

Originally posted by TDiddy8701
wow, losing to Bronx was a major ELO hit... Mem with 2 less losses is now behind Whoville... crazy. Losing to a team that far down ladder is about equal to having two losses against teams top of ladder.

That's not how ELO works. It's not "equal" to anything.

Whoville lost most of their games early season when they had chem problems. Losing early season does minor damage to your ELO compared to losing late.

Losing late against a team with much lower ELO and you should be surprised MEM only moved down 1 spot.

Passing needs to be nerfed.

Rushing just needs some functionality changes. It doesn't necessarily need a buff.

- ghosting DEs
- blockers need to STOP TURNING AROUND AND RUNNING INTO THE HB!!! This is ridiculous and happens all the time. They should always be moving downfield.
- O-Line need to move FORWARD at the snap of the ball and not try to block a defender out of a play. EX: Play = HB Dive. Center snaps the ball and instead of moving forward downfield to pick up the safety (because the defense is running a blitz from the outside) he turns 45 degrees and runs down the LOS to try and block an outside LB blitzing who isn't even in the play. Maybe they need to implement zone blocking because clearly the center is locked onto that LB.

I think the 2nd two can be fixed easily. Put something in the code where the blockers are always looking downfield and not to the side or behind them.

If these 3 rushing issues are fixed, it would help rushing tremendously.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Passing needs to be nerfed.

Rushing just needs some functionality changes. It doesn't necessarily need a buff.

- ghosting DEs
- blockers need to STOP TURNING AROUND AND RUNNING INTO THE HB!!! This is ridiculous and happens all the time. They should always be moving downfield.
- O-Line need to move FORWARD at the snap of the ball and not try to block a defender out of a play. EX: Play = HB Dive. Center snaps the ball and instead of moving forward downfield to pick up the safety (because the defense is running a blitz from the outside) he turns 45 degrees and runs down the LOS to try and block an outside LB blitzing who isn't even in the play. Maybe they need to implement zone blocking because clearly the center is locked onto that LB.

FYI, everything you mention here will increase Rushing YPA if implemented. I'm not saying it shouldn't but it will.

Would Passing then need a nerf? Seems unclear. Certain "aspects" of Passing need a nerf: like throwing into double and triple coverage and not getting enough PDs and INTs, but wide open WRs dropping passes should be fixed as well.

Originally posted by Xars


I run 5 Passing plays that average 7.3 YPA and everyone is up in arms about Passing being OP. Fix the Evasive DE issue and Rushing might be solved - or close.





That's the key thing right there, that's much, much different than YPC. Those same 5 plays net you 13.56 YPC and at a ~55% completion rate.

Originally posted by Xars
Well even with the Evasive DE issue (which should be fixed), there are plenty of Vet running plays averaging good numbers.

Here's the Global numbers for S12 VET from the "History" tab of GLB2scout.com

Only HB rushes:

For Inside including Off Tackle:
4WR Off Tackle Weak is at 6.16 YPA
There are 9 Other plays in the 5.00-5.99 YPA range
There are 22 Plays in the 4.00-4.99 YPA range

That's 32 Inside/OT rushing plays that are averaging over 4.00+ for the tier.

For Outside/OT:
There is I HB Sweep Strong at 7.75 YPA
There are 5 plays averaging between 6.00-7.00
There are 15 plays averaging between 5.00-6.00

That's 21 Outside/OT rushing plays that are averaging over 5.00+ for the tier.

Combining all 12,187 Inside Runs (plays * ypa) gets you 68,507 yards and a global YPA of 5.62 (for the above plays)
Combining all 8,566 Outside Runs (plays * ypa) gets you 50,891 yards and a global YPA of 5.94 (for the above plays)

I run 5 Passing plays that average 7.3 YPA and everyone is up in arms about Passing being OP. Fix the Evasive DE issue and Rushing might be solved - or close.

Let's not act like Rushing is impossible at Vet even with the issue though.


I'd be curious to see what those numbers looked like if you removed games against CPU and otherwise incompetent teams. It doesn't really matter if you can get 8 YPC against a gutjob because you are winning anyway. It matters what you can get against top 10 ladder teams.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
- O-Line need to move FORWARD at the snap of the ball and not try to block a defender out of a play. EX: Play = HB Dive. Center snaps the ball and instead of moving forward downfield to pick up the safety (because the defense is running a blitz from the outside) he turns 45 degrees and runs down the LOS to try and block an outside LB blitzing who isn't even in the play. Maybe they need to implement zone blocking because clearly the center is locked onto that LB.

I'll lol when fast LBs start chasing your HB down from behind and you begin to rage that the C should have picked him up.

In terms of blocking changes, what I would like to see is even more gradation in SP cost of blocking skills to give even more encouragement to building balanced blockers. Even with the past changes, people still tend to build min maxed OL, usually run blockers.

Assuming the range of a skill is about 15-100 (because you never start with zero), a midpoint value for a skill is 58. Rather than the option being 58 in everything or 100/15 run/pass or vice versa, it should be more like 75-80 everything or 100/15 run/pass.

Then you can adjust what that means in the sim on the backend to balance it back out with DL builds. But it is important to give agents a visually appealing option so they think they have a really nice dot on their hands, and 65-ish in everything doesn't really feel like a good dot to me.

Originally posted by Parab00n

That's the key thing right there, that's much, much different than YPC. Those same 5 plays net you 13.56 YPC and at a ~55% completion rate.

True. It's why Long Pass plays should have a lower comp% and Short Pass plays a much much higher comp%. Haven't we all said that for ages?

Short Passes draw much less double and triple coverage than Long, so if double/triple coverage defense was buffed then the Passing game could average 7.3 YPA but have lower YPC than 13.56. WRs certainly need a buff when wide open and might need a buff in single coverage if the double/triple coverage change nerfs overall Passing a lot.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
I'll lol when fast LBs start chasing your HB down from behind and you begin to rage that the C should have picked him up.

In terms of blocking changes, what I would like to see is even more gradation in SP cost of blocking skills to give even more encouragement to building balanced blockers. Even with the past changes, people still tend to build min maxed OL, usually run blockers.

Assuming the range of a skill is about 15-100 (because you never start with zero), a midpoint value for a skill is 58. Rather than the option being 58 in everything or 100/15 run/pass or vice versa, it should be more like 75-80 everything or 100/15 run/pass.

Then you can adjust what that means in the sim on the backend to balance it back out with DL builds. But it is important to give agents a visually appealing option so they think they have a really nice dot on their hands, and 65-ish in everything doesn't really feel like a good dot to me.

Yeah further damage all run teams while not really effecting passing teams. Sounds ass backwards to me.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
I'd be curious to see what those numbers looked like if you removed games against CPU and otherwise incompetent teams. It doesn't really matter if you can get 8 YPC against a gutjob because you are winning anyway. It matters what you can get against top 10 ladder teams.

I don't disagree but the Overall Passing numbers include that too.

One thing that has happened in Vet is Defensive builds geared to stop the Run. I built LZ Boys that way. S13 will be our third season at Vet and the newer teams in Vet have better Pass Defenses than LZ's S6 teams. And with Bronx Bombers about to go Vet, you're going to see a lot of Passing D focus.

Defensive builds and roster mix should help Rushing a little in S13 and S14 as teams try to deal with all the Passing that's going on.

Originally posted by Xars
FYI, everything you mention here will increase Rushing YPA if implemented. I'm not saying it shouldn't but it will.

Would Passing then need a nerf? Seems unclear. Certain "aspects" of Passing need a nerf: like throwing into double and triple coverage and not getting enough PDs and INTs, but wide open WRs dropping passes should be fixed as well.



Agree

Originally posted by Dark_Fate
Gg GA. A good ole defensive battle

Running sucks. You just can't win at the top level just running the ball, but yoou can just passing the ball.

Originally posted by jfbueno
Yeah further damage all run teams while not really effecting passing teams. Sounds ass backwards to me.

lolwat

May I suggest a visit to the Derek Zoolander School For Kids That Can't Read Good And Want To Do Other Things Good Too?

Originally posted by Xars
I don't disagree but the Overall Passing numbers include that too.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Cuivienen
I'll lol when fast LBs start chasing your HB down from behind and you begin to rage that the C should have picked him up.



And I'll lol when you run ZEB or any other heavy outside blitz and my center and FB pave a path for my HB to run for 1000 yards and 10 TDs right up the gut.