Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Sean1995
You are still not getting what I am suggesting here. I am not here to make passing suck more. Just reward those damn well-built pass rushing linemen. Buff non-hurried pass if it's needed to make things more balanced b/w running and passing. Most of you haven't make any logical counter-arguments against this, and yet all you are saying is 'Pass suck already, why make it worse?' Like, come on, cause it's not about that.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think buffing non-hurried passing and then Increasing the effect of hurries would be the best way to go. This will just result in defenses blitzing every play. The passing team needs some kind of counter to the blitz. Maybe that's a running game, but not all pass teams are built to run. Screens would be great, if it didn't break the game. Maybe reducing the drop rate on wide open passes. It's all a give and take.

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Did you even see the play? It has nothing to do with the QB rolling left or hitting a wide open WR. It has to do with the QB being pressure, rolling the left and THROWING A LAZER ACROSS THE FIELD ABOUT 40 YARDS right into the hands of an open WR. That is the issue...no way in hell a rookie QB should be able to do that ever if he wasn't pressured.

I saw the play. And yes it is a pretty good play for a rookie, but nothing that you wouldnt see in other rookie games. I checked our last game for big passing plays. And here is a very similar play to yours:http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/100950/347595
But this time the QB rolls into the pressure. Which makes me think that the QB movement from your QB play is coincidentally away from the pressure.
And another one, where the QB moves for no apperent reason: http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/100950/347259

What I want to say. You can get a great play out of a hurry, like the play you posted and you can get a rubbish play without getting hurried like that play: http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/100950/346922

Still, a handful of plays cant be a proof that hurries are useless, if you look the complete numbers.

well (I've been out of town)

First of all - Stobie! Thanks a ton for supplying all of the stats.

After seeing both Stobie's overall stats -- as well as his showing the specific stats of his own QBs who have performed well -- I don't really see that the argument can continue.

Do Hurries effect the QB and cause a reduced completion rate? The answer is clearly YES.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Do Hurries effect the QB and cause a reduced completion rate? The answer is clearly YES.

Sorry, you are wrong. Data means nothing, if you have one play that showes the opposite. Same goes for one QB that performs not accordingly to the data over a very limited period of time.

are you smoking crack?

Originally posted by TxSteve
After seeing both Stobie's overall stats -- as well as his showing the specific stats of his own QBs who have performed well -- I don't really see that the argument can continue.

Do Hurries effect the QB and cause a reduced completion rate? The answer is clearly YES.



Seeing your previous posts, I don't think you ever got my suggestion. This is about making hurries more penalizing, not whether if they ever have any effect at all on pass quality/accuracy.

I'm aware of that -- but as you may have noticed -- threads evolve and change...especially when they get to page 12.


You think hurries should be more penalizing. My position was "how much do they affect things now??? how can we ask for MORE without knowing where we are starting from?"

I've seen where we're starting from. I think it's reasonable now.

In 12 pages - I'm not sure anyone has agreed with you. I don't agree with you either. The problem isn't that we are all too stupid to understand what you're saying -- the problem is that you don't seem to be able to understand that most of our opinions are different from yours (and just as valid as yours as well).

Originally posted by TxSteve
are you smoking crack?



He forgot to add that he was being sarcastic.

Originally posted by TxSteve
In 12 pages - I'm not sure anyone has agreed with you. I don't agree with you either. The problem isn't that we are all too stupid to understand what you're saying -- the problem is that you don't seem to be able to understand that most of our opinions are different from yours (and just as valid as yours as well).



Not true. Most people were just opposing because the implementation of this would make passing more ineffective. Some who looked at it more objectively made arguments that 5% completion difference is enough, or that it would make blitzing OP, and I have made lots of counterarguments against them as well. The only person I think who's seeing the big picture is adderfist Lots of things need to be improved. I didn't know so many of you were afraid of changes this much.

Originally posted by Sean1995
Not true. Most people were just opposing because the implementation of this would make passing more ineffective. Some who looked at it more objectively made arguments that 5% completion difference is enough, or that it would make blitzing OP, and I have made lots of counterarguments against them as well. The only person I think who's seeing the big picture is adderfist Lots of things need to be improved. I didn't know so many of you were afraid of changes this much.

If the change had to do with reducing the strength of running, I'm sure you would be singing a different tune. If you want to increase the strength of hurries then you need to lay out how that would work without throwing off the balance of the game. Rewarding defensive players isn't a good enough reason. I am looking at the big picture. I already feel that running is better, implementing this change will further this gap. I agree that we can't be afraid of changes, but this one would be groundbreaking.

Originally posted by rob4121983
If the change had to do with reducing the strength of running, I'm sure you would be singing a different tune.

Why would I? Because I am OCing for a run only team? Because I want other passing offense to suck? ROFL If for a selfish reason I want something to be nerfed, that would be run defense. LOL But there isn't any logical reason why that should happen.

Originally posted by rob4121983
I am looking at the big picture.

You said you are, but you really aren't, because you said Originally posted by rob4121983
implementing this change will further this gap.

He's seeing the bic picture, btw.

Originally posted by Adderfist
Outside of all your arguing, what needs to happen is this.

WR's need to catch in traffic less, be it through improved PD rolls or otherwise.
WR's need to separate easier. Greater scale of speed or more effective headfakes/pump fakes

OL need to pass protect better when built for it. Run or Balanced OL's pass protect just as well as a line built to protect the pass.

Hurries need to have a larger impact on throw accuracy
Non hurried passes need to be better just all around.

CB's need to react to errant throws better
CB's need to drive on the ball when they're facing the QB and hardly moving. Right now they almost never put themselves in a winning position.


Originally posted by rob4121983
I agree that we can't be afraid of changes, but this one would be groundbreaking.

You just said that this would be 'groundbreaking,' right? Well, stobie's data shows that only 12.5% of all the pass attempts had been hurried in S5, and currently there is 5% completion difference when hurried. So, hurries are only affecting 0.625% of passing attempts. Now, even if you make it 15% difference, it's still 1.875%. 98.125% of your passing attempts won't be affected by it. How is it groundbreaking to you? Because even after tripling the effect of hurry, it will still take more than 50 throws to make one pass difference?

Originally posted by Sean1995
Why would I? Because I am OCing for a run only team? Because I want other passing offense to suck? ROFL If for a selfish reason I want something to be nerfed, that would be run defense. LOL But there isn't any logical reason why that should happen.
Rush teams own the ladder, but there is no "logical reason" to adjust run defense. But you think hurries should be enhanced and you haven't given an appropriate way to counterbalance that.

Originally posted by Sean1995
He's seeing the bic picture, btw.
The big picture is the balance between rushing and passing. You seem to have no concept of this balance, so you aren't seeing the big picture.



Originally posted by Sean1995
You just said that this would be 'groundbreaking,' right? Well, stobie's data shows that only 12.5% of all the pass attempts had been hurried in S5, and currently there is 5% completion difference when hurried. So, hurries are only affecting 0.625% of passing attempts. Now, even if you make it 15% difference, it's still 1.875%. 98.125% of your passing attempts won't be affected by it. How is it groundbreaking to you? Because even after tripling the effect of hurry, it will still take more than 50 throws to make one pass difference?

And you think that if this change is made that there will be no change in the hurry rate? Blitzing will become overpowered. Defenses will just blitz 100% and suddenly those 55-60% completion percentages will become 45-50. Those few extra incompletions will result in failed drives. Blitzing the QB already has the added bonus of a potential sack or sack/fumble, plus the rattled effect keeps in potential receivers. I just don't see how you can further reduce passing without making other changes. If you actually saw the big picture you would realize this. Don't you remember how bad running was when Corndog made a "minor" change to blocking?

Not only that, but passing is already hard enough at rookie and sophomore levels. This would force all teams to be running teams from the start.

Originally posted by Adderfist
Outside of all your arguing, what needs to happen is this.

WR's need to catch in traffic less, be it through improved PD rolls or otherwise.
WR's need to separate easier. Greater scale of speed or more effective headfakes/pump fakes

OL need to pass protect better when built for it. Run or Balanced OL's pass protect just as well as a line built to protect the pass.

Hurries need to have a larger impact on throw accuracy
Non hurried passes need to be better just all around.

CB's need to react to errant throws better
CB's need to drive on the ball when they're facing the QB and hardly moving. Right now they almost never put themselves in a winning position.

Just saw that you posted this. My apologies for not noticing.

Better separation from WR's is a great option.

Better pass blocking is good, but not when facing more blitzers than an O-Line can handle. Like the teams that just Engage 8 every play.

I think if we were to increase the strength of hurries we need to give receivers better balance, better catch in stride and better open field moves. As it is now, you have to pour all your SP into your receivers just to make sure that they catch the ball...little else can be spent to give them abilities in the open field. Unlike real football, you aren't penalized as bad for blitzing the house against the pass, because receivers commonly fall down while catching the pass or flat out drop the ball. There aren't enough big plays in the passing game.

Originally posted by rob4121983
Blitzing the QB already has the added bonus of a potential sack or sack/fumble

Thats what I thought from the beginning. You dont blitz or pass rush to gain hurries. You want to gain sacks.
--> sacks = big impact, hurries = small impact

And thanks for clearing that up, thought it was abvious
Originally posted by TxSteve
are you smoking crack?
Originally posted by rob4121983
He forgot to add that he was being sarcastic.

wop