Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TxSteve
Also - you are the one who has moved the goal posts here - and I'll be honest and say I'm disappointed.

Your spiel all along was "good teams can stop it" -- when that was proven incorrect...you're now changing the argument to say "you just want to nerf people".

Proven where? Where I posted that Darkside shutout Tampa who runs a whole lot of QB Sweeps? Oh wait...that proves my point.

How 'bout the games last season where Quincy didn't score anything? If QB rollout is so awesomesauce that it can't be stop, how the hell does that happen?

I haven't changed my argument once. I've provided evidence to support my argument. Just because you refuse to pay attention to it, and refuse to provide real evidence in return, doesn't mean I'm moving the goal posts. It means you're counting the blades of grass on the field rather than paying attention to them.

Originally posted by
If I could score a ton with say (just picking a play) - Spread Pitch Strong - and I told you I was going to run it 30 times in a scrimmage against you -- you would shut that play down.

Unless I ran Middle Overload spam...

Originally posted by
If I chose HB Slam and warned you -- you would shut it down

Unless I ran a bunch of outside blitzes...

Originally posted by
If I chose Trips pitch weak and warned you -- you would shut it down

Pretty much any weak side blitz is going to fail here...

Originally posted by
If I chose any run other than QB roll out -- you would shut it down if I warned you...

But with QB roll out -- you can't -- that is the issue.

Nope. I can, and have, shut that down too. Mostly by not doing the stupid stuff mentioned above. Teams that can't stop QB rollouts at all are doing stupid stuff like above. And the game shouldn't be changed to accommodate them.

That's what I keep saying. How are you not getting this even though I keep linking to games where it does get shut down?

How is Yorick not totally undefeated and blowing everyone out by a hundred points a game (CPU teams notwithstanding)?

The answer: it's a good play, but not so completely overpowered that nobody nowhere could possible hope to do anything about it.

Originally posted by
That is the crux of the argument....your claims through the early part of this thread were that "good teams can shut it down" -- that is incorrect - and you know it is incorrect -- but you don't want your baby to get nerfed even though it deserves it...so you're now trying to muddy the waters with passing yards per attempt (which I believe ignore sack yards by the way) and other garbage. You've still never really answered the questions I proposed earlier - you're just trolling here...

My argument hasn't changed once. My requirements to be convinced haven't changed either. I'm truly not trolling here. You can tell when I troll because I don't bother linking or pointing out reality. I just make smartass comments.

You're the one who keeps ignoring the evidence. I've linked a bunch of good teams stopping QB sweeps. I've shown you that passing QB's are way more dangerous in terms of yardage and scoring than rushing QB's. I've even explained in way more detail than I should why Yorick can run sweeps more reliably than others (and it's pretty much for the same reason any team that builds to be successful at something is better than others).

If you want to convince me I'm wrong, it's going to require you providing solid evidence. You can't just say "But with QB roll out -- you can't -- that is the issue" and expect me to take that as gospel, especially when I've shown so very many times that that statement is not true.

Evidence.

Link me games. Link me players.

Tell me why, using rational logic, not emotional you're-hurting-my-feel-bads, a QB who scores less and gets less yardage is worse for the game because he does it rushing than a QB who utterly annihilates teams passing. Tell me why, again using logic and evidence, that all the plays where QB rollout gets stopped don't count, but the few times it works do count.

Now I don't think you can do that simply because you have no way of discounting my evidence to the contrary. But that doesn't mean I'm moving the goal posts. It means you're wrong and need to reevaluate your position.

Ok. You're right. I'm wrong. Keeping spamming your way to the top-ish.

I'll just leave you with this:

Originally posted by Corndog
Well, you don't need to prove it's broke, mostly just need to know why it's so strong.

Surely it isn't an unstoppable play design or it would be ran all the time in the NFL.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Are you smoking something? Is that the root of the issue - you believe the "best running QB" should be exactly equal to the "best passing QB"? Show me a high level of football where that is the case! NEWS ALERT: High end QB's typically throw for more yards than high end RB's rush fore -- I hope you were sitting down for that one...Top QB's in the NFL regularly pass for 4K yards...there has never been a 3000 yard NFL rusher...should NFL HB's picket and strike because they aren't able to accrue the same stats as Peyton Manning??

Nope. I don't think that. Which is why you don't see me bitching and moaning that Quincy isn't running for 10,000 yards and 90 TD's like good passing QB's put up.

Originally posted by
I've never even heard of darkside before - get me a team link and I'll go watch some of their film.
The exploit is running a play that can't be consistently defended OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER - as I've said before - if it isn't the inate advantage in the play...why aren't you spamming other things???? Right - because the other plays aren't as effective at producing homeruns...

See. This is pretty much proof positive you aren't actually paying attention to my arguments and are just reacting on emotion.

I linked you the Darkside-Tampa Eris League championship game. Darkside shut out Tampa in that game.

Heck, you scrimmed me and until your team started getting beat down, you stopped the play. But you're not paying any attention to the piles of evidence against your claims. You're just cherry-picking the games where a bad team, or a team that didn't know what they were doing, got run over.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Ok. You're right. I'm wrong. Keeping spamming your way to the top-ish.

I'll just leave you with this:

Originally posted by Corndog

Well, you don't need to prove it's broke, mostly just need to know why it's so strong.

Surely it isn't an unstoppable play design or it would be ran all the time in the NFL.



I answered Corndog's comment with exactly why, and it's the same thing I think should happen in GLB2. NFL defenders aren't stupid. GLB2 defenders are.

Originally posted by vipermaw82

yorick does what they gotta do to win and i can appreciate that. It's much like glitchy plays in madden NHL... name the game kids do that stuff all the time because as long as they win they feel good but lack the integrity for a real game. To each his own. Last season if i knew i was playing a spamming team bet your tookus i did it back.

Yeah....this reminds me of EA NCAA Football cheese plays, like WR streaks.

Originally posted by Xavori
You're just cherry-picking the games where a bad team, or a team that didn't know what they were doing, got run over.

Well given that this is a thread to discuss why new owners find coaching frustrating and quit....in my mind that is a pretty pertinent part of what we're talking about. you did start this thread didn't you??

Yes - I've posted heavily about rookies -- and I've posted about very early sophomores - and my experiences there - and my personal experience. I do not know if the play will still be effective at the end of sophomore or not...

but this is a thread that discusses "things that cause new owners to get frustrated and quit over" - to which - I think it is a problem and negative for the game.


Nowhere have you seen me discuss journeyman as an example - i have no clue if it works there - or if it is overpowered there - but this is a thread about why new coaches quit...

Originally posted by TxSteve
Well given that this is a thread to discuss why new owners find coaching frustrating and quit....in my mind that is a pretty pertinent part of what we're talking about. you did start this thread didn't you??

Yes - I've posted heavily about rookies -- and I've posted about very early sophomores - and my experiences there - and my personal experience. I do not know if the play will still be effective at the end of sophomore or not...

but this is a thread that discusses "things that cause new owners to get frustrated and quit over" - to which - I think it is a problem and negative for the game.


Nowhere have you seen me discuss journeyman as an example - i have no clue if it works there - or if it is overpowered there - but this is a thread about why new coaches quit...


Hey. And we came up with the mentor thing which I think would be very useful.

For example, I could actually teach rookie owners of the value of not using any of the goal line defenses against goal line offenses. Yes, they sometimes get lucky and work, but in the long haul, you don't want to be counting on luck if you can avoid it.

Yorick got stopped by teams rookie season. We get stopped more than it works now (espec at the start of games where it doesn't really work at all). Tampa-Darkside were sophomore teams last season when they played. I'm pretty sure Lost Lounge had a few games against such teams as rookies, but I can't remember who (I do remember talking to Jampy about it tho)

Originally posted by Xavori

Heck, you scrimmed me and until your team started getting beat down, you stopped the play. But you're not paying any attention to the piles of evidence against your claims. You're just cherry-picking the games where a bad team, or a team that didn't know what they were doing, got run over.

You scored 3 points in the 1st...and 14 points in the 2nd - and nothing in the second half. Did you watch the game?

Originally posted by TxSteve
You scored 3 points in the 1st...and 14 points in the 2nd - and nothing in the second half. Did you watch the game?

Yup. You beat my guys up. You're a bully.

Pretty much what happened to Yorick in the championship game last season. We worked on it some, but still have more work to do.
(not to mention the major lineup overhaul I did after that game)

But hey, let's look at Quincy's QB sweeps in that game with the Jesse's for a second. He ran the sweep 17 times (out of 61 total rushes for the team)

They went 5, 29, 2, 6, 2, 6, 14, 8, 13, 37, 44, -3, 22, 8, 13, 16, and -4.

That would be a pretty weak game for a passing QB, doncha think? Then again, the 17 total points should have been a giveaway it wasn't exactly Quincy running wild.

Now, I did go with my spammiest tactics as that was the point of the exercise which I think actually hurt my offense later in the game. Normally Quincy only gets 15 or so carries, and at most half of them are the sweep (cuz the point is to wreck the other team, not mine by making them run wind sprints).

But even taking that into consideration, at no point does Quincy performance ever look overpowered.

Originally posted by Xavori
Which is exactly what I've suggested repeatedly. Have the defense making Pursuit rolls to shuffle down the line and then burst through when there is an open lane to the ball carrier. As an added bonus, this makes defenses work more realistically versus ALL outside runs while at the same time, still requiring DC's to call good defenses and defenders to build good players.

Btw, Yorick didn't beat you yesterday because I spammed QB sweeps. You stopped them to start the game. Most good teams do.

I beat you because I have a gameplan/team design that makes it nearly impossible to stop us for an entire game. It happens, but not often, and I'm working towards making it harder and harder.

Kinda like how Lost Lounge's passing game is nearly impossible to stop for an entire game, or Darkside's whole chaos of things eventually works.


Only downside to that is you'd need some check for the runningback to cut back against the grain when the defense over perseus ... great for reality of game play, bad for Corndog's personal life.

Originally posted by william78
Only downside to that is you'd need some check for the runningback to cut back against the grain when the defense over perseus ... great for reality of game play, bad for Corndog's personal life.

Corndog doesn't need a personal life.

But that's kinda almost in already. I've seen a few plays where the HB does just that.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Also - you are the one who has moved the goal posts here - and I'll be honest and say I'm disappointed.

Your spiel all along was "good teams can stop it" -- when that was proven incorrect...you're now changing the argument to say "you just want to nerf people".


If I could score a ton with say (just picking a play) - Spread Pitch Strong - and I told you I was going to run it 30 times in a scrimmage against you -- you would shut that play down.

If I chose HB Slam and warned you -- you would shut it down

If I chose Trips pitch weak and warned you -- you would shut it down

If I chose any run other than QB roll out -- you would shut it down if I warned you...

But with QB roll out -- you can't -- that is the issue.

That is the crux of the argument....your claims through the early part of this thread were that "good teams can shut it down" -- that is incorrect - and you know it is incorrect -- but you don't want your baby to get nerfed even though it deserves it...so you're now trying to muddy the waters with passing yards per attempt (which I believe ignore sack yards by the way) and other garbage. You've still never really answered the questions I proposed earlier - you're just trolling here...

So much truth.

In Xavori's defense, he did agree with me that the OLB should play containment, which would actually make the QB rollout easier to defend.

But until they can fix the defensive AI issue of angles and containment, I suggest they either:

1. remove goalline formation from the playbook
or
2. only let you run goalline formation from inside the 5 yard line

Originally posted by nortobc
In Xavori's defense, he did agree with me that the OLB should play containment, which would actually make the QB rollout easier to defend.

I want lots of changes to defender play, which I've presented a number of times.

txsteve wants ZOMG NERF NOW! for a play that really isn't that much better than any other run except in that you have a team built for it, and it's a whole lot weaker than some of the brutal passing attacks out there. And he's presented zero evidence in support of his desire.

But again, ultimately I want want coverage got this offseason. Improvements that get defenders closer to playing the way they'd play in a real football game.

And then I want a single wing offense so I can show TxSteve what a truly overpowering rushing attack would look like