Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Xars
Guys... No one is arguing against your point. No one. (that I can see)

There are too many 13-15 Yard Catch plays that end up yielding 7-8+ YPA.

The game needs more 7-10 Yard Catch plays that end up yielding 5.5-6.5 YPA.

I'd rather not just use the same few plays each game.

Just because I do it, doesn't mean it's want I want the game to be. I'm pretty consistent in railing against it.



See my post above, you say you want to use more of the plays but you don't even use the ones you are talking about in this thread.

Originally posted by FairForever
Good analysis. I think it also speaks to why there shouldn't be any more offensive plays added to the playbook, until current plays are fixed.

Two quick fixes could improve all those bad plays:

1) Custom route progressions, the same way GLB1 did it
2) Remove or alter the rattled mechanic

If you want to figure out if a pass play is viable in GLB2, the first thing you have to look at is if the route you want to throw to can't get rattled (often TE1), a lot of plays go on the junk heap immediately because the key guy that you think will find the hole in the defense won't even run his route most of the time. If you could send out the guys you wanted 100% of the time many plays would be a lot better. This is key because of how powerful blitzing is, especially after the hurry buff, most routes on most plays can never get thrown to because they are an auto sack, especially on 3rd down.

Custom route progressions are similar, the pressure comes so quickly and hurries/sacks are so punishing (taking a sack or two often tanks morale enough to halt scoring for a full quarter or more), if the play's best routes against the defenses you want to beat are down in the progression you can kiss it off, it's not a play you can call against a top team.

Sure, there are plays that beat the popular blitzes, but the blitzes are so powerful that the *threat* of them stifles the metagame and narrows your options tremendously.

And yes, this would be a straight up buff to passing, I'd love to also see buffed defender awareness and ball swatting ability, especially where there's double coverage, to help the defense in compensation.

Originally posted by Xars
Another quick breakdown.

Passing:
8+ YPA: 4
7+ YPA: 5
6+ YPA: 15
5+ YPA: 26
4+ YPA: 42
3+ YPA: 38
2+ YPA: 17
1+ YPA: 8
Less than 1 YPA: 22

Total: 177

Let's total up the plays UNDER 4+ YPA. That's worse than the "good" Inside/Off Tackle/Outside runs plays.

From the above there are 85 "bad" Passing plays out of 177. That's 48%. Shouldn't something be done to improve the efficacy of the existing playbook?


Are your figures taking account of the talent on the teams running these plays, and situations they are used in? Or can we assume the 4+s might be 6+s in the right offense, considering the plays are being poorly executed when they are run? If were factoring in 0-16 teams or cpu teams or teams that run short passes on 3rd and 10 resulting in sacks it skews the numbers some is all Im saying.

This is more of a sim/rpg... its a niche game with the meat of it being coordinating/running a team. While rookie is rough, all lvl 0 toons in a rpg kinda are (still think maybe points should be awarded faster in rookie to get past this), outside of all the good suggestions I think players should be able to coordinate CPU teams so they can really play the game... that way if they see the real game and hopefully get hooked, maybe they will actually buy said team and stick around.

I just made it to vet for the first time this past season and if I hadn't gambled and bought a team I wouldn't have stuck around just to watch my player I had no idea how to build play this long. Speaking of such, there needs to be actual tutorials and more info about the game other than guess work from players or having to research the forums witch most people wont do. I know most are scared this could create cookie cutter builds (and prob would to some extent), I think the system seems open enough that variety of player builds can be done (and are already).

Originally posted by Parab00n
You keep saying that people would use more pass plays if they averaged more than 6+ YPA, but how many of those 24 pass plays that average over 6 YPA have you used this season? How about last season? The one before that?


Well in 3WR in S12 Vet, there were 4 Passing plays that were at 6+ YPA (but not 7+). I used 2 in S12 and S11. In S13, I use 3 of the 4 listed.

Now, let's look at all the plays I/everyone could be using that have high YPC average (in 3WR).

SB TE Drive is at 15.38 YPC with a comp% of 52.79.
SB Trips WR Posts is at 15.20 YPC with a comp% of 51.51.
SG TE Drive is at 14.92 YPC with a comp% of 47.49.

Everyone uses those.

Now here's the next batch and plays that could be tweaked or something.

SB Trips WR Unders is at 14.34 YPC with a comp% of 40.74%. Here's a 5.84 YPA play that could be improved a little. It's also a "Short" play.
SB Under Swing is at 13.32 YPC with a comp% of 44.51%. Here's a 5.93 YPA play that could be improved a little.
SG Flood Right is at 13.16 YPC with a comp% of 38.55%. Here's a 5.07 YPA play with an abysmal comp%.
SB Trips TE Lead is at 13.16 YPC with a comp% of 28.82%. Ok, scratch my above comment. This 3.79 YPA play has a disaster comp%.

But these aren't the plays I'd want tweaked. They just show how a more varied "Throw for the First Down" playbook could be implemented.

Let's look at under 10 YPC plays. First up is...

SG TE Drag is at 9.63 YPC and 43.04% comp. Here's a 4.14 YPA that can generate decent but not game breaking yardage. Can the comp% be increased to 60ish%?
SB TE Shallow Cross is at 8.71 YPC and 48.57% comp%. Here's a 4.23 YPA that could be improved.
SG Quick In is at 8.48 YPC and 36.32% comp%. Here's a 3.08 YPA play that could be improved.
SG Smash is at 8.42 YPC and 43.85% comp%. Here's a 3.69 YPA play.

These plays could all use a comp% bump. If they were at 60+% comp, wouldn't a lot of people use them more?

Originally posted by Parab00n
See my post above, you say you want to use more of the plays but you don't even use the ones you are talking about in this thread.

Well there are only 4 3WR plays in that range (6+) and I used to use 2 and now I use 3.

Had there been more effective options back in S6, I would have built an Offense that could run more WR sets and use more plays. But the play limitation has been around for quite awhile and yes, it effected the type of team I built (since I was just trying to use my 2 S*).

Originally posted by Jagat0r

Are your figures taking account of the talent on the teams running these plays, and situations they are used in? Or can we assume the 4+s might be 6+s in the right offense, considering the plays are being poorly executed when they are run? If were factoring in 0-16 teams or cpu teams or teams that run short passes on 3rd and 10 resulting in sacks it skews the numbers some is all Im saying.

They are the Global numbers. Same bias for the Rushing and the Passing is my guess. So yeah against CPU these numbers are probably higher, but against humans probably lower.

I guess I'm just confused as to why so many people seem averse to the idea of fixing passing plays. Will add diversity to the passing plays being called, and significantly reduces the chances of newer OCs picking what are currently garbage plays and thinking the game is awful.

Originally posted by Xars
They are the Global numbers. Same bias for the Rushing and the Passing is my guess. So yeah against CPU these numbers are probably higher, but against humans probably lower.

Not what I meant, I mean the very fact that mostly CPU teams and inexperienced coordinators use the plays on offense, therefore the numbers are skewed by a lack of being used in a comprehensive offensive plan built to run them. Therefore some of them could actually prove useful(not all im sure) but I have made use of a larger section of the playbook than most 5 play spammers, and find there are indeed useful short medium and long pass plays.

Originally posted by Corndog
Not all plays are the best plays because it's impossible for all plays to be the best plays. Even if it were possible, all plays being equally successful would make for one dull game.
I disagree - it is possible for all plays to be the best play. That is, for every play there could be some set of circumstances (down and distance, field position, opponent's play choice, etc) under which that play is the best. In fact, this situation is exactly what you as game designers should be striving for. It certainly doesn't mean that, under any given set of circumstances, all plays are equally successful.

The situation to avoid is one in which there are two plays (call them A and B) such that there is no set of circumstances under which B is better than A. Then A dominates B, and there is no reason for anyone ever to use B.

Originally posted by Xars
Here's how I look at it:

Here are S12 statistics from Vet per Stobie. I used 10 plays as the cut off. (For just the first part.)

Passing:
8+ YPA: 4
7+ YPA: 5
6+ YPA: 15
5+ YPA: 26
4+ YPA: 42
3+ YPA: 38
2+ YPA: 17
1+ YPA: 8
Less than 1 YPA: 22

24 plays with less than 10 play calls.

There are 55 "Short" plays.

Of these,
10+ YPC: 8 plays but only 2 at 6+ YPA. Conclusion: 6 could be tweaked.
9+ YPC: 7 plays but only 1 at 6+ YPA (and that had only 9 play calls) Conclusion: 6 could be tweaked.
8+ YPC: 12 plays but 0 at 6+ YPA Conclusion: 12 could be tweaked.
7+ YPC: 7 plays but 0 at 6+ YPA conclusion: 7 could be tweaked.

There are 77 "Medium" plays.

Of these,
10+ YPC: 49 plays but only 16 at 6+ YPA. Conclusion: 33 could be tweaked.
9+ YPC: 4 plays but 0 at 6+ YPA (and that had only 9 play calls) Conclusion: 4 could be tweaked.
8+ YPC: 8 plays but 0 at 6+ YPA Conclusion: 8 could be tweaked
7+ YPC: 6 plays but 0 at 6+ YPA Conlcusion: 6 could be tweaked

I just listed 92 (31 Short) plays with YPC's over 7 that could be tweaked to generate 6+ YPA (or close to it).

Above 10 YPC: 39 plays that could be improved
Above 9 YPC: 50 (39+11) plays that could be improved
Above 8 YPC: 70 (50+20) plays that could be improved

The issue isn't the 1-3 yard drags.



That list isn't separated by 1st and 3rd down I assume. 3rd down changes how the sweet spots play out. Take Single Back Z Spot for instance. Why don't people use this play? Because it is almost an auto throw to WR3 doing a 1-2 yard route only to get immediately tackled if he catches the ball. On 3rd and anything more than 5 he won't even be targeted. There are a number of plays similar to this. Not to mention got forbid you throw a 5 yard route and the WR dives backwards.

Originally posted by Xars

SB Under Swing is at 13.32 YPC with a comp% of 44.51%. Here's a 5.93 YPA play that could be improved a little.


In veteran tier this is being completed 48% with a 6.19 YPA. I actually thought this play was used more widely in veteran the last season or so but I guess it has been mostly limited to me, rob, and USC for the most part.

Originally posted by Jagat0r
Not what I meant, I mean the very fact that mostly CPU teams and inexperienced coordinators use the plays on offense, therefore the numbers are skewed by a lack of being used in a comprehensive offensive plan built to run them. Therefore some of them could actually prove useful(not all im sure) but I have made use of a larger section of the playbook than most 5 play spammers, and find there are indeed useful short medium and long pass plays.

There are more "good" plays than people give credit for. That's true. And some plays are close to being "good" but the right team hasn't dedicated to running it and putting the right players and builds into it.

Originally posted by bhall43
That list isn't separated by 1st and 3rd down I assume. 3rd down changes how the sweet spots play out. Take Single Back Z Spot for instance. Why don't people use this play? Because it is almost an auto throw to WR3 doing a 1-2 yard route only to get immediately tackled if he catches the ball. On 3rd and anything more than 5 he won't even be targeted. There are a number of plays similar to this. Not to mention got forbid you throw a 5 yard route and the WR dives backwards.

Correct, it's not. And that's why I wasn't advocating for all Passing plays to magically target 6 YPA. Plays should have different strengths and weaknesses. But when the bell curve is as lopsided as it is, it's evidence of some tuning needed.

Originally posted by bhall43
In veteran tier this is being completed 48% with a 6.19 YPA. I actually thought this play was used more widely in veteran the last season or so but I guess it has been mostly limited to me, rob, and USC for the most part.

I guess that means I can now add it to the LogZilla spamfest.

But really, this doesn't help the game. The YPC of that play is already 12.83. Against Over Will it has a completion% of 43.59%, but 14 of the 16 catches are 10+ yards. So it's a First Down 35.8% of the time.

What's needed is the 7-10 YPC plays to have higher comp% so the game isn't "Throw for one First Down three times".

Originally posted by ThirdAndLong

The situation to avoid is one in which there are two plays (call them A and B) such that there is no set of circumstances under which B is better than A. Then A dominates B, and there is no reason for anyone ever to use B.

Thiiiiiis!

Also I have tried just about every play in the playbook over the last two years...most don't work for me.

Originally posted by ThirdAndLong

I disagree - it is possible for all plays to be the best play. That is, for every play there could be some set of circumstances (down and distance, field position, opponent's play choice, etc) under which that play is the best. In fact, this situation is exactly what you as game designers should be striving for. It certainly doesn't mean that, under any given set of circumstances, all plays are equally successful.

The situation to avoid is one in which there are two plays (call them A and B) such that there is no set of circumstances under which B is better than A. Then A dominates B, and there is no reason for anyone ever to use B.

There's nearly 400 offensive plays. As great of a pipe dream as it may be for all 400 plays to have their own unique situation where they are the best play, it is a pretty unreasonable expectation. Especially in a game format where you set tactics before a game and then hope for the best. Most games will consist of coordinators picking the dozen or so plays that are most effective in the most situations, and that will be that.