Warrior General Games

i see your point Gal but right now you'd be required to have showboat on all your guys to implement a diminishing return for the QB runs - I think making the QB more vulnerable is a more targeted solution and can even be somewhat mitigated for someone determined to sweep the Qb 20 times a game but pumping toughness, heart and leadership to try to let the QB absorb the abuse.

I was trying for a solution which would impact the fewest things and cause the fewest changes and still increase the risk part of the risk reward

if you require all linebackers and dline and safeties to have showboat to balance out the fact that QBs can't get hurt it seems unbalanced to me

I suspect the cows are well out of the barn at this point with respect to the changes though and moving on seems the best approach for everyone involved

Originally posted by Galithor
My problem with an arbitrary "bonus morale" damage applied to the QB when they choose to run is this is a "fix your build" thing with defenses. Showboat exists for everyone to choose as an SA. It does exactly what you're asking, and has the bonus of also smacking the rest of the offense too. Getting it to bronze is a pretty good idea, and really cheap.

Showboat only triggers on a TFL or a sack. The problem with QB Rollout (before the nerf) is the QB was well past the line of scrimmage when/if tackled, so showboat wouldn't apply.

Originally posted by Cirop
Showboat only triggers on a TFL or a sack. The problem with QB Rollout (before the nerf) is the QB was well past the line of scrimmage when/if tackled, so showboat wouldn't apply.

wrong, it was a TFL a large % of the time still with the right play call

Originally posted by Cirop
Showboat only triggers on a TFL or a sack. The problem with QB Rollout (before the nerf) is the QB was well past the line of scrimmage when/if tackled, so showboat wouldn't apply.

Yeah, this was only true a minority of the time. Most of the time, if you were getting to the QB, it was a TFL.Originally posted by Rom_Fox
i see your point Gal but right now you'd be required to have showboat on all your guys to implement a diminishing return for the QB runs - I think making the QB more vulnerable is a more targeted solution and can even be somewhat mitigated for someone determined to sweep the Qb 20 times a game but pumping toughness, heart and leadership to try to let the QB absorb the abuse.

I was trying for a solution which would impact the fewest things and cause the fewest changes and still increase the risk part of the risk reward

if you require all linebackers and dline and safeties to have showboat to balance out the fact that QBs can't get hurt it seems unbalanced to me

I suspect the cows are well out of the barn at this point with respect to the changes though and moving on seems the best approach for everyone involved

I don't know if you noticed, but showboat is a fantastic SA. You should be getting to at least bronze on anyone that gets a TFL occasionally anyhow, regardless of QB rollouts. At silver and gold, it's a game-changing SA. It's ability to snowball it's own impact is unrivaled. Every TFL lowering the entire offenses morale makes the next TFL increasingly likely.

Originally posted by Galithor
It's the same thing with the complaining about WRs smoking poor agility CBs on flag routes right now. There is an SA called "Chase Down" that's designed to handle this specific problem. Very few CBs have invested in Chase Down.

Requiring an SA in order to just have a chance at a situation that is now coming up 40+ times per game is prolly a bad idea.

Originally posted by Xavori
Requiring an SA in order to just have a chance at a situation that is now coming up 40+ times per game is prolly a bad idea.



I don't think Chase Down is one of those "only once chance to fire" type SAs though. I assume it gets multiple chances continuously until you're back within 4 yards, like closing speed. It's also based on Cov Tech, which is certainly a skill people will be taking to fairly high values.

By the time you got that to gold tier 50% chance with 60+ cov tech probably has it firing as reliably as Quick Read.

And for what it's worth, it's not required. Anyone can build a player with high footwork/quickness/sprinting to deal with the flag routes. Most folks just haven't adjusted their builds.

Originally posted by Galithor
I don't think Chase Down is one of those "only once chance to fire" type SAs though. I assume it gets multiple chances continuously until you're back within 4 yards, like closing speed. It's also based on Cov Tech, which is certainly a skill people will be taking to fairly high values.

By the time you got that to gold tier 50% chance with 60+ cov tech probably has it firing as reliably as Quick Read.

And for what it's worth, it's not required. Anyone can build a player with high footwork/quickness/sprinting to deal with the flag routes. Most folks just haven't adjusted their builds.

As a DC of a journeyman team, I can assure you that whatever adjustments you think you're making on builds are being more than outmatched by the improvements WR's and QB's are making to theirs. And while you're adding 3 skills, they've only got to build 2...

Originally posted by Xavori
As a DC of a journeyman team, I can assure you that whatever adjustments you think you're making on builds are being more than outmatched by the improvements WR's and QB's are making to theirs. And while you're adding 3 skills, they've only got to build 2...

Xav, that's a little oversimplified. They need all the same support skills, and catching skills too. In any event, if you've elected to not build to handle it on defense, lo and behold, there's an SA tailor-made to cover up this weakness! We can probably count the Journeyman coverage CBs and Safeties that have Gold Chase Down on one hand. I bet we need a spreadsheet to count the number with less than 50 footwork.

Originally posted by Xavori
As a DC of a journeyman team, I can assure you that whatever adjustments you think you're making on builds are being more than outmatched by the improvements WR's and QB's are making to theirs. And while you're adding 3 skills, they've only got to build 2...

Eh, I have some ideas that I think are gonna bottle up most of the stuff you think currently is OP if I can rally the troops around it after this season. Certainly not ideal though as the real culprit is that CB's appear to be playing the QB despite being in man rather than the WR/TE on those flag routes. WR just straight runs his route. CB is still in backpedal mode watching the QB and then makes a full turn the opposite way resulting in a fast WR3/TE getting a huge cushion.

Originally posted by Galithor
They need all the same support skills,

i lol'd

Originally posted by Galithor
Xav, that's a little oversimplified. They need all the same support skills, and catching skills too. In any event, if you've elected to not build to handle it on defense, lo and behold, there's an SA tailor-made to cover up this weakness! We can probably count the Journeyman coverage CBs and Safeties that have Gold Chase Down on one hand. I bet we need a spreadsheet to count the number with less than 50 footwork.

WR's don't need Footwork to run a fly route. CB's do need it to cover one. So, you have WR Sprinting versus CB Sprinting + Footwork.

As for support skills on fly routes. WR's needs Receiving Hands. CB needs Man Awareness and Coverage Technique.

Oh, and your CB better have some run stopping skills for those games against balanced or run-first offensees. Your passing team's WR's...nope.

Originally posted by bhall43
Eh, I have some ideas that I think are gonna bottle up most of the stuff you think currently is OP if I can rally the troops around it after this season. Certainly not ideal though as the real culprit is that CB's appear to be playing the QB despite being in man rather than the WR/TE on those flag routes. WR just straight runs his route. CB is still in backpedal mode watching the QB and then makes a full turn the opposite way resulting in a fast WR3/TE getting a huge cushion.

My idea on the subject you've already seen....twice this season. I just won't let your QB hold the ball long enough for the fly and out routes to develop.

Originally posted by Xavori
My idea on the subject you've already seen....twice this season. I just won't let your QB hold the ball long enough for the fly and out routes to develop.

Eh im not a huge fan of using that method as I know its pretty easily destroyed and it doesn't fit my players builds either.

Originally posted by bhall43
i lol'd

You don't put conditioning on a Barry Allen build?

Don't know how this got off-topic again, but I'd like to hear this explained:

Originally posted by Corndog
Two things,

One, I'm planning on making WRs react better when there's nobody covering them and they are assigned a runoff.

Two, the FB reacts to the first person he sees, which is somehow behind him.

Not sure if it'll be as helpful as just reverting the changes and removing goalline but I guess we'll see, if it gets implemented. Won't stop defenses from being psychic.

Originally posted by Galithor
You don't put conditioning on a Barry Allen build?

What does that have to do with anything?

The WR doesn't need footwork. Doesn't need balance. Doesn't even need quickness or sprinting tbh. Little amounts of those things help certainly to some extent, but the requirements to stick with a WR are absolutely lol.

Footwork, Balance, Quickness, Awareness, cover tech, sprinting, chase down SA, on an island, 3rd down man, then you gotta have deflecting just so that your guy puts a hand out and vertical so your guy doesn't look like an idiot jumping for no reason...you might still have a largely average guy unless your getting help over the top constantly.