Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Sardonik00
So why did Darkside win then? Not enough QB roll outs by Tampa Bay?

Not enough of the GL one, I just skipped the play if it wasn't a goalline set but I'm assuming they didn't go well.

Originally posted by Sardonik00
So why did Darkside win then? Not enough QB roll outs by Tampa Bay?

Hustle.

Originally posted by bhall43
What play do you not think I can stop? Because you are largely embarrassing yourself already.

stop 100% of the time like you are wanting from the QB rollout strong? None.

I don't think you could shut down the Minn Stunners running game, they could roll with 1 inside run play, tell you what it is and you couldn't stop it if given control of a sophomore team, even if you got one built to stop the run

Originally posted by HayRow
stop 100% of the time like you are wanting from the QB rollout strong? None.

I don't think you could shut down the Minn Stunners running game, they could roll with 1 inside run play, tell you what it is and you couldn't stop it if given control of a sophomore team, even if you got one built to stop the run

So you are going to pick a team from a tier in which I have no affiliation to whatsoever? lol

Originally posted by HayRow
stop 100% of the time like you are wanting from the QB rollout strong? None.

I don't think you could shut down the Minn Stunners running game, they could roll with 1 inside run play, tell you what it is and you couldn't stop it if given control of a sophomore team, even if you got one built to stop the run

You guys think we don't have rushing teams at Journeyman?

Okay, for everyone that says the teams that use GL Rollout but lost because obviously that team didn't run it enough...

That game I posted between Yorick and Minnesota where TxSteve was cheating? I specifically set up the playbook to run way too much outside running, and in the outside running, I had QB Rollout at max priority and everything else at minimum priority with only 5 plays on the page. You cannot run it more than I tried to do in that game. And I only scored 2 TD's in that game.

I personally believe (AND I WANT TO STRESS THIS IS MY OPINION NOT ME RUNNING STATS) that running it that much actually hurts my team because I burned up my QB's, o-line, and other lead blockers stamina without doing enough corresponding morale damage to the defense. Conversely, when I use my usual mix of inside, outside, and QB runs, I break teams so that everything starts working which is what usually leads to Yorick's lopsided scores.

The facts:
-Stobie's found tons of plays where the supposedly OP QB Rollout gets tackled for lost. Not really OP is you lose yardage a bunch of time.

-I've posted tons of games where teams running the supposedly OP QB Rollout lost--which to me is all the proof I should have needed that it wasn't OP. If you can't use it and win all the time, then it's no better or worse than a bunch of other really good strategies.

-I can post as many HB Sweeps for long TD's as QB Rollouts for TD's because the problem isn't the play. It's that outside run defense is borked. Fix that AI, and suddenly QB Rollout and HB Sweep are suddenly no more or less effective than many other runs.

Originally posted by HayRow
stop 100% of the time like you are wanting from the QB rollout strong? None.

I don't think you could shut down the Minn Stunners running game, they could roll with 1 inside run play, tell you what it is and you couldn't stop it if given control of a sophomore team, even if you got one built to stop the run

I disagree.....

My position on this is: pick any play EXCEPT gl Roll out (and possibly GL HB sweep) - and if I spam it ... it can be game planned for and shut down quite effectively

as an example: Proset HB Slam: middle overload or something

I might even go further and say pick a running play that does not involve the QB...I can spam it as much as possible...and I'd bet he could largely shut it down with a rookie team by game planning.

(sure - broken tackles / multiple pancakes might still result in some positive yards or even long plays...but there would not be ANY long TDs that didn't involve either broken tackles / pancakes / or some multiple combination)

Still tossing out online internet factoids based on personal belief intended to save team paradigm. I hear a dying wolf in the distance. For a week you've been demanding proof and stats and this thread basically laid waste to any more posts like these of yours. Can you just, stop?

Originally posted by Xavori


The facts:
-Stobie's found tons of plays where the supposedly OP QB Rollout gets tackled for lost. Not really OP is you lose yardage a bunch of time.


Actually if you read my data, you will find that the QB rush play has a higher yards per carry than any other rush in the game. That is ok if every now and then but if you have a big play % of over 30% that means if you run this play you may get tackled for a loss 3/10 times which is true, but you very well gain 10+ yards 3/10 times as well... I will take those odds all day long. PLEASE give me those odds in Vegas.

Point being is:
Do I think the play is OP....... NO
Do I think there are ways to stop it...... YES
Do I think more should be done to give more balance to the play...... YES

I think that defense should be given some more options to stop this play on a more consistent level. This type of play is a huge risk loss/reward type of play so I would expect to see higher ranges in loss% and biggain% but, ypc should level themselves out, which they are not.

Just my 2 cents, my data is out there for interpretation, but I think we all agree the situation... not the play is not ideal for the GLB community.

Looking at Stobie's Data. Query is as follows : QB Rollout Strong, PlayCallCount > 10, Name1 (this is defense play used against it) Is Not Null. Sorting by average yards gained. Group By for all fields except Average Yards Gained.

Name,AvgOfYardsGained,PlayCallCount,Formation1,Name1,Distance1,Zone,Blitz
QB Rollout Strong,29.3,39,5-2,GL All Gaps Fire,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,26.2,29,4-4,Man QB Spy 1,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,26.1,66,5-2,GL LB Contain,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,24.0,53,Goal Line D,MLB Gap A Weak,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,23.4,24,4-4 Big,Cover 1 QB Spy,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,22.4,12,4-4,Zero Edge Blitz,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,22.1,23,4-4 Big,Man LB Contain,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,21.9,64,Goal Line D,MLB Gap A,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,21.8,82,5-2,GL Gap A,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,21.4,293,Goal Line D,LB Contain,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,21.1,11,4-3,Middle Overload,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,20.8,100,4-4,GL B Gaps Fire,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,19.6,18,5-2,Man DE Flats,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,19.3,166,Goal Line D,Blitz C,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,17.3,20,4-4 Big,Man OLB Blitz,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,16.6,35,Goal Line D,Gaps All Fire,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,16.5,23,4-4,Man LB Contain,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,16.0,16,4-3,CB Blitz Zone,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,15.6,11,4-3,Man DE Flat Strong,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,15.2,147,5-2,Man Base,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,14.6,37,5-2,Cover 1 Man Under,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,14.0,22,4-3,Cover 2 Man Under,Medium,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,13.7,74,5-2,Man LB Dogs,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,13.1,129,Goal Line D,B Gaps Fire,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,12.0,16,Nickel 3-3-5,Cover 2 CB Blitz,Short,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,11.9,14,4-3,Man Base,Medium,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,11.7,21,Nickel 3-3-5,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,11.3,15,4-3,Shallow Sam Blitz,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,11.0,25,4-4 Big,Man Base,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,10.9,26,4-3,Shallow Will Blitz,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,10.6,21,3-4,2 Double Cat,Short,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,10.1,18,4-3,Cover 1 CB Fire,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,10.0,68,4-4,GL LB Contain C,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,9.8,24,5-2,Cover 3,Medium,1,0
QB Rollout Strong,9.8,27,3-4,2 Cat Blitz Strong,Short,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,9.7,23,Dime,DB Blitz,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,9.4,115,Dime 3-2-6,2 Strong Corner Fire,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,9.4,115,3-4,Cat Blitz,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,9.2,12,5-2,1 DE Flats,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,8.8,126,4-4,Zero LB Dogs,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,8.8,43,4-4 Big,Strong Fire Roll,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,7.9,224,5-2,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Short,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,6.9,17,5-2,Cover 2,Medium,1,0
QB Rollout Strong,6.3,21,4-3,GL LB Contain C,Short,0,0
QB Rollout Strong,6.1,49,5-2,Trio Sky Zone,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,5.5,37,4-4,Cover 1 Dogs,Short,0,1
QB Rollout Strong,3.3,36,5-2,SS Strong Fire 3,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,0.8,24,Dime 3-2-6,Edge 2 Buzz,Medium,1,1
QB Rollout Strong,-0.5,11,4-3,Man QB Spy,Short,0,1

You can just copy and paste that in to a text file and load it in to a table or excel. Now I personally think that being able to weight this data against the teams blocking and rush defense would help us see a better picture. I think it's important to break this down before making any decisions. Also just for fun.... a break down by teams.

OffensiveTeam,Name,AvgOfYardsGained,Formation1,PlayCallCount,Name1,Distance1,Zone,Blitz
Yoricks Gravediggers,QB Rollout Strong,47.5,Goal Line D,12,LB Contain,Short,0,0
Midgar Avalanche,QB Rollout Strong,33.8,4-4,12,Man QB Spy 1,Short,0,0
Seattle Seahawks,QB Rollout Strong,31.7,5-2,32,GL LB Contain,Short,0,0
LaPaz Challengers,QB Rollout Strong,28.1,5-2,11,Cover 1 Man Under,Short,0,0
North Korean Slim Kims,QB Rollout Strong,27.6,Goal Line D,16,Blitz C,Short,0,1
Azabache Strikers,QB Rollout Strong,26.6,Goal Line D,17,LB Contain,Short,0,0
SynEx Ground,QB Rollout Strong,23.5,Goal Line D,11,Blitz C,Short,0,1
Sexy Dance Fighters,QB Rollout Strong,23.3,Goal Line D,26,LB Contain,Short,0,0
Ellix Burghers,QB Rollout Strong,21.5,Goal Line D,26,Blitz C,Short,0,1
Seattle Seahawks,QB Rollout Strong,20.5,5-2,17,Man Base,Short,0,0
Run GLB,QB Rollout Strong,19.3,5-2,12,Man Base,Short,0,0
Ive Never Had Sex,QB Rollout Strong,18.0,5-2,23,Man Base,Short,0,0
Denver Demolition,QB Rollout Strong,16.5,Goal Line D,14,LB Contain,Short,0,0
Nigerian Minimares,QB Rollout Strong,15.9,Dime 3-2-6,15,2 Strong Corner Fire,Medium,1,1
LaPaz Challengers,QB Rollout Strong,15.0,5-2,16,Man Base,Short,0,0
BO( . )( . )OBS!,QB Rollout Strong,14.5,5-2,22,Man LB Dogs,Short,0,1
Yoricks Gravediggers,QB Rollout Strong,13.8,4-4 Big,12,Strong Fire Roll,Medium,1,1
Sexy Dance Fighters,QB Rollout Strong,13.4,5-2,29,Man LB Dogs,Short,0,1
Banger PEACEING PUNISHINGMENTS,QB Rollout Strong,12.8,4-3,17,Cover 2 Man Under,Medium,0,0
LaPaz Challengers,QB Rollout Strong,12.5,3-4,31,Cat Blitz,Short,0,1
Seattle Seahawks,QB Rollout Strong,12.0,Nickel 3-3-5,16,Cover 2 CB Blitz,Short,1,1
Run GLB,QB Rollout Strong,11.8,5-2,12,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Short,1,1
The Boogie Men,QB Rollout Strong,11.0,5-2,20,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Short,1,1
North Korean Slim Kims,QB Rollout Strong,10.8,4-4 Big,19,Man Base,Short,0,0
Forty Two,QB Rollout Strong,10.6,Dime 3-2-6,13,2 Strong Corner Fire,Medium,1,1
LaPaz Challengers,QB Rollout Strong,10.6,4-3,16,Cover 1 CB Fire,Short,0,1
Seattle Seahawks,QB Rollout Strong,9.7,Dime,23,DB Blitz,Short,0,1
SynEx Ground,QB Rollout Strong,9.2,4-3,11,CB Blitz Zone,Medium,1,1
DHaran Empire,QB Rollout Strong,9.2,4-4,17,Zero LB Dogs,Short,0,1
Ive Never Had Sex,QB Rollout Strong,9.0,5-2,35,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Short,1,1
Tucson Reptiles,QB Rollout Strong,8.5,5-2,11,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Short,1,1
BO( . )( . )OBS!,QB Rollout Strong,8.3,5-2,15,Man Base,Short,0,0
Sexy Dance Fighters,QB Rollout Strong,7.8,3-4,30,Cat Blitz,Short,0,1
Ive Never Had Sex,QB Rollout Strong,7.5,4-3,11,Shallow Will Blitz,Short,0,1
Run GLB,QB Rollout Strong,7.4,5-2,25,Trio Sky Zone,Medium,1,1
Philadelphia Quakers,QB Rollout Strong,5.9,5-2,11,Man Base,Short,0,0
SynEx Ground,QB Rollout Strong,5.5,5-2,16,Cat Blitz 2 Roll,Short,1,1
Sexy Dance Fighters,QB Rollout Strong,5.1,5-2,12,Trio Sky Zone,Medium,1,1
Denver Demolition,QB Rollout Strong,4.0,4-4,12,Zero LB Dogs,Short,0,1
Seattle Seahawks,QB Rollout Strong,2.9,3-4,13,2 Cat Blitz Strong,Short,1,1
Sexy Dance Fighters,QB Rollout Strong,2.5,Dime 3-2-6,15,2 Strong Corner Fire,Medium,1,1
Azabache Strikers,QB Rollout Strong,2.3,4-4 Big,11,Strong Fire Roll,Medium,1,1

Run XAVORI! RUN!!!!!!

IotB,

Yorick's data is going to be all kinds of skewed. Yorick opened against a CPU team and blew them up. Then we played Columbus who basically used the default goal line defensive playbook and blew them up too.

But when we played Detroit and Lincoln City, the numbers get more in line with reality as both those teams are good.

Originally posted by Stobie
Actually if you read my data,

I wish your data had more data points. Like the Team Defenses Rush/Blocking values compared to the Offenses values. This is all last season's data right? If so, then Yorick was rookie and I'm not sure how much weight I'd put in to our data. We built a team to maximize the run game strategy, and as I said before running outside because CB's don't have or take hold ground, balance and break tackle seems like the proper weakness to exploit. When you're WR's or TE's can plant the CB, you free up a blocker to engage the LB or Safety that would most likely make it a tackle for loss or very little gain. Just look at bhall's four links that he posted earlier.

Anyway if you can get more data points, I'd be happy to try and do some metrics. PM if you do. I don't need team names, just values. I may play around with this some more later.

--EDIT: Nevermind, this seems to be current season.

"more in line with reality":

vs Lincoln:

QB Goal Line Roll Outs:
8
11
-4
16
-4
6
7
-5
10
13
7
30
16 (td)
-4
5
9

16 for 121

GL HB Sweeps vs Lincoln:
0
7
25
-1
10
-2
12
10
14
7
23
14
4 (td)

13 for 123

More than 50% of your offensive yards from those two cheese balls

Originally posted by IotB
I wish your data had more data points. Like the Team Defenses Rush/Blocking values compared to the Offenses values. This is all last season's data right? If so, then Yorick was rookie and I'm not sure how much weight I'd put in to our data. We built a team to maximize the run game strategy, and as I said before running outside because CB's don't have or take hold ground, balance and break tackle seems like the proper weakness to exploit. When you're WR's or TE's can plant the CB, you free up a blocker to engage the LB or Safety that would most likely make it a tackle for loss or very little gain. Just look at bhall's four links that he posted earlier.

Anyway if you can get more data points, I'd be happy to try and do some metrics. PM if you do. I don't need team names, just values. I may play around with this some more later.


Here is the thing though - everything that you've said here is pretty much the philosophy I've undertaken with my team...and it is a good one -- but I don't have to run the goal line cheese plays to be competitive. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Yorick doesn't HAVE to either...but at this point Xav is loving his role as "villain" I guess.

I think the best solution would be to only allow the goal line formation to be used inside the 20. Teams could no longer rely on the play for sole offense, and it becomes much simpler to defend. Of course, the other QB outside run plays would need to be fixed to give running QBs a viable option. Currently, literally none of them work.