Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TxSteve
Originally posted by Parab00n

DA's offense averaged 6.6 YPC on 27 carries with Trips HB Counter

Originally posted by Parab00n

DA managed 10.6 YPC on 26 attempts of Trips Counter, mostly due to broken tackles.

Originally posted by Parab00n

DA's offense managed a 12.8 YPC on 17 Trips Counters which is pretty terrible

Originally posted by Parab00n

DA averaged 11.4 YPC on 25 carries with Trips Counter.

Originally posted by Parab00n


DA with a 8.2 YPC on 27 attempts of Trips Counter.

DA with a 70% completion rate of WR Hook and TE Post.

I won't bother compiling all of DA's defensive stats, because I clearly showed that with a well built defense running the correct plays you can slow down or even completely shut down Trips Counter.



What part of a Zone defense running Man defensive plays do you guys not understand?

Counters Could use a bump

Just to add those yardage totals:

6.6 x 27 = 178
10.6 x 26 = 275.6
12.8 x 17 = 217.6
114 x 25 = 285
8.2 x 27 = 221.4

That's a lot of yards each game from one play.

Just want to give this suggestion some attention since it fits the point of this thread:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum/thread/5245967

Don't know how well it'd do, but I think it'd be a bit better against balanced teams using counters than what we've currently got. A 3-2 Dime variant would be welcome as well. Preferably with the LOLB in a Lurk under the CB4 deep zone.

Here is the breakdown of each play against Trips Counter alone. Before I do, let me say a couple things that I thought most would understand but clearly not.

Man Awareness helps defenders reduce/prevent the effects of Head Fake. It also allows them to recognize runs a little quicker, that last part isn't super important but still plays a small role.

My guys don't have any Man Awareness, they are Zone Defenders. Zone defenders use Zone Awareness which works when the players are in Zone, but not when players are in Man.

My guys are Slow, Power Hitting defenders. They are all very slow compared to other teams, this results in them struggling to catch faster HBs. DA's HB is the fastest/quickest RB in Vet. With my guys being slow and the RB being fast it causes a sub-optimal situation for the defense.

Now, for the data...


3-4 C1 WR Smother gave up 8.28 YPC on 14 Carries, it didn't give up any big plays but it also only had 3 TFL. It was pretty consistent in being favorable for the offense.

3-4 Man DE Flats gave up 12.26 YPC on 15 carries, it did give up 2 huge plays of 80 and 46 yards. However, it also recorded a 50% TFL rate. This play, even though has a worse YPC is much more favorable for the defense.

Dime 3-2-6 C1 Double Lurk - This play gave up 7 YPC, it did not give up any big plays but only recorded 1 TFL. I will save judgement on this play until I combine the pass data into it.

Dime 3-2-6 C1 TE Smother - This play gave up 10.66 YPC on 9 carries, it did have 1 huge gain of 55 yards. It only recorded 1 TFL, but it also had 2 stops for 0 yards. I'll double check after I publish this but that 55 yard gain may be one of the times that coverage was misaligned/bugged. Even with that big gain I'd say this is still a decent play.

Dime 3-2-6 Man DE Flats - This play gave up 6.54 YPC on 11 carries. The longest play it gave up was 19 yards, it recorded 3 TFL and 1 gain for 0 yards.

Dime 3-2-6 Strong Cloud 6 - This play gave up 6.66 YPC on 3 Carries. This is most likely a fluke as it had 1 TFL and the other times it gave up gains of 9 & 12. DA really struggled to use this play vs DD. I wouldn't use this without more testing.

Dime Man Mike Fire Strong - This play gave up 10 YPC on 5 carries. It record 1 TFL and its biggest gain was 16 yards.

Nickel 3-3-5 Under Sam Mike Blitz 1 - This play gave up 19 YPC on 5 carries, that 19 is very misleading though. It recorded 1 TFL and the rest big gains. If you don't have a fast LB I would not use this play, my guys sucked at it.

Nickel C1 TE Smother - This play gave up 17.33 YPC on 12 carries including 2 of 80 yards each. This is another TE Smother play so you may bet a more accurate picture by breaking each run down and seeing if the CB was misaligned again. It recorded 5 TFL, so this seems to be a boom or bust type of play.

Nickel Man DE Flats - This play gave up 6.39 YPC on 23 carries, its biggest gain allowed was 25 yards. It recorded 8 TFL, 1 play of 0 yards, and 2 plays of 1 yard.

Quarter C1 Double Lurk - I was actually pretty surprised to see that this play only gave up 7.88 YPC on 17 attempts. Every time it got dialed up I cringed. It had 4 TFL and the other times it seemed to be very consistent for the offense for at least 10 yards. I actually think some teams could run this very well, guys weren't terrible out of place but they did more speed than my guys had.


Just speaking on the Counters Trip defense, some of these were pretty damn good. There were at least 10 instances where defenders missed tackles in the backfield that allowed a gain. That has to be factored into your defensive gameplan.

**I scrapped all this data with a program from GLB2Scout, I'm assuming it's accurate. Feel free to double check it for yourself and please someone else step up and test this shit instead of crying on the forums.

I understand everything you've said before - we just disagree.

Looking at this - the best ypc defenses (flawed I know) were:
6.39
6.66
6.54

What is going to happen this coming season when people are spamming the counter as much as humanly possible at times? A coin flip? If you're not running any of those 3 plays - you're going to get slaughtered? If you are running those 3 plays (which do produce some TFL...but also give up big gains (10, 12, 19, 25) - then what? Will the O put up any points?

We are just rehashing QB GL Rollouts. Sure there are TFL sometimes...but there are also huge gains and home runs.

I admit that the DE Flats plays are plays that I've never run before. Good for you for finding them. If I recall - the GL rollouts could be stopped with some kind of a fire zone occasionally or some kind of a cat blitz occasionally (still gave up lots of home runs) - and if you didn't know those plays you were screwed.


At the same time - as we all seem to believe this game is shrinking - think about the newbs..
"oh I see, this guy runs a ton of trips counters (yes I'm giving a pretend newb a lot of credit). Cool, this under sam looks like it should corral that. WHAT THE HECK? Why isn't my LB blitzing??? Why isn't my team following the play art? I got killed by one stupid play because my defenders don't do what they are supposed to. This game is a joke. This game sucks. Laterz"

What is our response? Ya - sorry dude - you have to run one of these 2 DE flats plays or you're going to get scorched. (which is just as bad as when I've said "ya dude - sorry - you aren't running TE crosses enough"

Originally posted by TxSteve
I understand everything you've said before - we just disagree.

Looking at this - the best ypc defenses (flawed I know) were:
6.39
6.66
6.54

What is going to happen this coming season when people are spamming the counter as much as humanly possible at times? A coin flip? If you're not running any of those 3 plays - you're going to get slaughtered? If you are running those 3 plays (which do produce some TFL...but also give up big gains (10, 12, 19, 25) - then what? Will the O put up any points?

We are just rehashing QB GL Rollouts. Sure there are TFL sometimes...but there are also huge gains and home runs.

I admit that the DE Flats plays are plays that I've never run before. Good for you for finding them. If I recall - the GL rollouts could be stopped with some kind of a fire zone occasionally or some kind of a cat blitz occasionally (still gave up lots of home runs) - and if you didn't know those plays you were screwed.


At the same time - as we all seem to believe this game is shrinking - think about the newbs..
"oh I see, this guy runs a ton of trips counters (yes I'm giving a pretend newb a lot of credit). Cool, this under sam looks like it should corral that. WHAT THE HECK? Why isn't my LB blitzing??? Why isn't my team following the play art? I got killed by one stupid play because my defenders don't do what they are supposed to. This game is a joke. This game sucks. Laterz"

What is our response? Ya - sorry dude - you have to run one of these 2 DE flats plays or you're going to get scorched. (which is just as bad as when I've said "ya dude - sorry - you aren't running TE crosses enough"

All YPC are not equal. For example, I play DFS a lot and it takes roughly 135 points every Sunday to win in any type of H2H, 50/50, Double Up. Now, which makes more money over the long term? Player A who consistently has 135 every week or Player B who has drastic swings as high as 170 and as low as 100? Both have an average score of 135.


This is me doing 1 day of testing on a play, there probably are 15 more that work well. Just because those DE Flats play work for me doesn't mean they will work for everyone else. Each team has to put some kind of effort into this game, unless we want to set each build exactly the same for each positions each team can run the exact same plays and none will have the same results. What doesn't work for me may work for you. That's on you to find out. This is what I'm trying to beat into your guys head, this isn't a vacuum. You coming in here posting blanket stats means absolutely nothing, its just a wall of data with no context.

Originally posted by Parab00n
All YPC are not equal. For example, I play DFS a lot and it takes roughly 135 points every Sunday to win in any type of H2H, 50/50, Double Up. Now, which makes more money over the long term? Player A who consistently has 135 every week or Player B who has drastic swings as high as 170 and as low as 100? Both have an average score of 135.


This is me doing 1 day of testing on a play, there probably are 15 more that work well. Just because those DE Flats play work for me doesn't mean they will work for everyone else. Each team has to put some kind of effort into this game, unless we want to set each build exactly the same for each positions each team can run the exact same plays and none will have the same results. What doesn't work for me may work for you. That's on you to find out. This is what I'm trying to beat into your guys head, this isn't a vacuum. You coming in here posting blanket stats means absolutely nothing, its just a wall of data with no context.


Firstly, I give you credit for putting in some scrims and trying some stuff out. I'd love to try some stuff on No Name today if anyone in J-Man is interested. However...

I don't really follow. You did one day of testing, found 0 (!!) plays that held the 3WR strongside pitches to < 5 YPC, and 2 plays that held the 3WR strongside pitches to < 7 YPC. The Dime 3-2-6 Man DE Flats play gave up 5.9 YPC to HB Counter Strong... and that was the best play you found. You ran 5 scrims of testing, found what I consider to be 0 plays that would be effective against a Trips HB Counter Strong team, and somehow jumped to the conclusion that a good defense can stop the play.

As a point of reference, you were complaining elsewhere that passing plays that average 6 Yards Per Attempt was already too much. And passing plays should have a higher YPA given that there is higher variance and also the chance of a sack.


Originally posted by Parab00n
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...

Originally posted by Parab00n
6+ YPA? WTF are you smoking Xars?

Originally posted by Parab00n
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. That doesn't make sense at all, there are 23 QBs in Vet alone that are averaging over 6 YPA so that doesn't hold any weight trying to compare it to the NFL. Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need. Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.

I agree with FF.

I disagree that you have found plays that work "pretty damn good"

As much as I appreciate that you keep trying to "teach" all of us, as far as I can tell, you are not convincing anyone.

I'm very grateful that you tested. In my opinion - your tests proved the point I (and others) have been trying to make. In my opinion, your tests disproved your own point.

He convinced me.

convinced you that you goofed up this season by not running the trips counter! Phase 2B starts in 4 days: trips counter spam (I'm sure you'll run it well)

Originally posted by Galactic Empire
He convinced me.

I checked your last 10 games, you only ran 1 counter play the entire time. WI Counter Weak or whatever it is. I'm not sure why you're dropping by for random "I support Boony!" comments every now and then, when this isn't really something that your team does.

Checking a few of your last games, and you don't really face many Counters defensively. Richmond Rockets who run 85% of the time didn't run them once against you. Mutley's didn't run them against you. A few teams sprinkled in a random counter, but in general they passed over 80% instead of choosing to run.

I see Ann Arbor ran them a few times, and you did shut it down, but from clicking the plays we see...their RB is hilariously slow. 5.7 speed and gets chased down from behind by a blitzing ROLB that overtakes him after a few yards. Any decent RB in rookie does not get TFL'd like that.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/225800/2157756

Lets do this, show me a play that every team can use consistently that holds both TE Drives, TE Post, WR Posts, or WR Cross to under 6 YPA. I don't want to just see 1 team doing it once, this play has to work for every single team every single time against any opponent.