Are you suggesting every pass play should be able to average 6 yards per attempt?
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FairForever
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Originally posted by AirMcMVP
Are you suggesting every pass play should be able to average 6 yards per attempt?
Not every pass play - but Xars isn't wrong here. There are a lot more pass plays that should be able to average 6 YPA. And then on the flip side you can tone down TE Drives and whatnot slightly.
Lots of QBs average much more than 6 YPA: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt
NOTE: I agree not every play should be averaging 6 YPA. But a good deal more could, if we want any kind of variety in pass play calling.
Are you suggesting every pass play should be able to average 6 yards per attempt?
Not every pass play - but Xars isn't wrong here. There are a lot more pass plays that should be able to average 6 YPA. And then on the flip side you can tone down TE Drives and whatnot slightly.
Lots of QBs average much more than 6 YPA: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt
NOTE: I agree not every play should be averaging 6 YPA. But a good deal more could, if we want any kind of variety in pass play calling.
Edited by FairForever on Sep 22, 2015 14:24:23
Parab00n
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Originally posted by FairForever
Not every pass play - but Xars isn't wrong here. There are a lot more pass plays that should be able to average 6 YPA. And then on the flip side you can tone down TE Drives and whatnot slightly.
Lots of QBs average much more than 6 YPA: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt
NOTE: I agree not every play should be averaging 6 YPA. But a good deal more could, if we want any kind of variety in pass play calling.
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. That doesn't make sense at all, there are 23 QBs in Vet alone that are averaging over 6 YPA so that doesn't hold any weight trying to compare it to the NFL. Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need. Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.
Not every pass play - but Xars isn't wrong here. There are a lot more pass plays that should be able to average 6 YPA. And then on the flip side you can tone down TE Drives and whatnot slightly.
Lots of QBs average much more than 6 YPA: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt
NOTE: I agree not every play should be averaging 6 YPA. But a good deal more could, if we want any kind of variety in pass play calling.
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. That doesn't make sense at all, there are 23 QBs in Vet alone that are averaging over 6 YPA so that doesn't hold any weight trying to compare it to the NFL. Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need. Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.
FairForever
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Originally posted by Parab00n
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. That doesn't make sense at all, there are 23 QBs in Vet alone that are averaging over 6 YPA so that doesn't hold any weight trying to compare it to the NFL. Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need. Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.
The problem with this logic is that plays that only get 3 - 5 yards, as bhall noted, have limited use in GLB2. Certain rushing plays average 6+ Yards Per Carry in Vet (a certain play averages over 13 YPC in Vet, even after 264 play calls). Considering the variance on run plays is less than on Pass (a 6 YPA pass with 50% completion would, for example, be one 0 yard play for every 12 yard play), passes would be expected to have a higher yards per attempt vs a run's yards per carry. I'm not sure having another set of plays that can reliably average 6 Yards Per Attempt is going to destroy the game. It's not like anyone has hidden passing plays up their sleeve that are going to exploit certain defenses.
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. That doesn't make sense at all, there are 23 QBs in Vet alone that are averaging over 6 YPA so that doesn't hold any weight trying to compare it to the NFL. Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need. Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.
The problem with this logic is that plays that only get 3 - 5 yards, as bhall noted, have limited use in GLB2. Certain rushing plays average 6+ Yards Per Carry in Vet (a certain play averages over 13 YPC in Vet, even after 264 play calls). Considering the variance on run plays is less than on Pass (a 6 YPA pass with 50% completion would, for example, be one 0 yard play for every 12 yard play), passes would be expected to have a higher yards per attempt vs a run's yards per carry. I'm not sure having another set of plays that can reliably average 6 Yards Per Attempt is going to destroy the game. It's not like anyone has hidden passing plays up their sleeve that are going to exploit certain defenses.
Xars
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Originally posted by AirMcMVP
Are you suggesting every pass play should be able to average 6 yards per attempt?
No. But more could. Currently 19 out of 177 do. That's 11% of potential plays.
I don't think 6 YPA is game breaking. Everyone is already spamming the 7 YPA plays in Pure Passing Offenses. Having more 6 YPA plays would be an improvement to Balanced teams; which would encourage Balanced Offenses. Think of the options on 2nd and 5.
Originally posted by Parab00n
6+ YPA? WTF are you smoking Xars?
Well let's look at things this way.
In S12, there were 12 Vet Inside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 1 over 6.
There were 23 Inside/OT Rushing plays that averaged over 4 YPC.
That's 38 plays of over 4+. There are 88 potential plays in this category. I'd call 29 of them clearly successful (4+). That's 36% of plays.
In S12, there were 15 Vet Outside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 4 over 6.
There were another 10 plays that averaged 4+ YPC.
That's 29 plays of over 4+ with 19 of them over 5+. There are 51 potential plays in this category. I'd call 19 of them clearly successful (5+). That's 37% of plays.
So if Inside Runs can average 4+ and Outside Runs can average 5+, I don't see anything game breaking with a greater variety of Pass plays at 6+ YPA. Not all; just more.
Remember, few teams are calling 6+ YPA plays because they are calling 7-8+ YPA plays instead.
Are you suggesting every pass play should be able to average 6 yards per attempt?
No. But more could. Currently 19 out of 177 do. That's 11% of potential plays.
I don't think 6 YPA is game breaking. Everyone is already spamming the 7 YPA plays in Pure Passing Offenses. Having more 6 YPA plays would be an improvement to Balanced teams; which would encourage Balanced Offenses. Think of the options on 2nd and 5.
Originally posted by Parab00n
6+ YPA? WTF are you smoking Xars?
Well let's look at things this way.
In S12, there were 12 Vet Inside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 1 over 6.
There were 23 Inside/OT Rushing plays that averaged over 4 YPC.
That's 38 plays of over 4+. There are 88 potential plays in this category. I'd call 29 of them clearly successful (4+). That's 36% of plays.
In S12, there were 15 Vet Outside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 4 over 6.
There were another 10 plays that averaged 4+ YPC.
That's 29 plays of over 4+ with 19 of them over 5+. There are 51 potential plays in this category. I'd call 19 of them clearly successful (5+). That's 37% of plays.
So if Inside Runs can average 4+ and Outside Runs can average 5+, I don't see anything game breaking with a greater variety of Pass plays at 6+ YPA. Not all; just more.
Remember, few teams are calling 6+ YPA plays because they are calling 7-8+ YPA plays instead.
Edited by Xars on Sep 22, 2015 15:25:14
Edited by Xars on Sep 22, 2015 15:05:10
Edited by Xars on Sep 22, 2015 15:02:15
Edited by Xars on Sep 22, 2015 14:59:54
Xars
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Originally posted by Parab00n
Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need.
No just the opposite. I've stated numerous times that Long passing needs a nerf.
Originally posted by Parab00n
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. ... Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.
I'm not saying everything should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. And there are different kinds of "tweaks".
Example #1: Have Quick Hitter work on catches up to 9 yards, instead of 6.
Example #2: Have Catch in Traffic bumped up under 10 yards and nerfed past that.
Things like that.
When only 11% of Passing plays generate 6+ YPA (and a crap ton are at 3-4-5), you can see why everyone runs TE Drive.
Xars is basically asking for 15 more TE drives he can spam over and over, that's the last thing we need.
No just the opposite. I've stated numerous times that Long passing needs a nerf.
Originally posted by Parab00n
It's not that he wants passing plays fixed, it's that he thinks they should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. ... Fix all the double cuts that WRs make on a ton of plays and make shorter passes easier to catch and deeper passes harder and you would see more variety. There is a reason they are considered "Short" plays, they should be higher % plays that can pick up 3-5 yards.
I'm not saying everything should be tweaked to average 6 YPA. And there are different kinds of "tweaks".
Example #1: Have Quick Hitter work on catches up to 9 yards, instead of 6.
Example #2: Have Catch in Traffic bumped up under 10 yards and nerfed past that.
Things like that.
When only 11% of Passing plays generate 6+ YPA (and a crap ton are at 3-4-5), you can see why everyone runs TE Drive.
Edited by Xars on Sep 22, 2015 15:26:16
Xars
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Another quick breakdown.
Passing:
8+ YPA: 4
7+ YPA: 5
6+ YPA: 15
5+ YPA: 26
4+ YPA: 42
3+ YPA: 38
2+ YPA: 17
1+ YPA: 8
Less than 1 YPA: 22
Total: 177
Let's total up the plays UNDER 4+ YPA. That's worse than the "good" Inside/Off Tackle/Outside runs plays.
From the above there are 85 "bad" Passing plays out of 177. That's 48%. Shouldn't something be done to improve the efficacy of the existing playbook?
Passing:
8+ YPA: 4
7+ YPA: 5
6+ YPA: 15
5+ YPA: 26
4+ YPA: 42
3+ YPA: 38
2+ YPA: 17
1+ YPA: 8
Less than 1 YPA: 22
Total: 177
Let's total up the plays UNDER 4+ YPA. That's worse than the "good" Inside/Off Tackle/Outside runs plays.
From the above there are 85 "bad" Passing plays out of 177. That's 48%. Shouldn't something be done to improve the efficacy of the existing playbook?
FairForever
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Good analysis. I think it also speaks to why there shouldn't be any more offensive plays added to the playbook, until current plays are fixed.
Parab00n
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Originally posted by FairForever
The problem with this logic is that plays that only get 3 - 5 yards, as bhall noted, have limited use in GLB2. Certain rushing plays average 6+ Yards Per Carry in Vet (a certain play averages over 13 YPC in Vet, even after 264 play calls). Considering the variance on run plays is less than on Pass (a 6 YPA pass with 50% completion would, for example, be one 0 yard play for every 12 yard play), passes would be expected to have a higher yards per attempt vs a run's yards per carry. I'm not sure having another set of plays that can reliably average 6 Yards Per Attempt is going to destroy the game. It's not like anyone has hidden passing plays up their sleeve that are going to exploit certain defenses.
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...
The problem with this logic is that plays that only get 3 - 5 yards, as bhall noted, have limited use in GLB2. Certain rushing plays average 6+ Yards Per Carry in Vet (a certain play averages over 13 YPC in Vet, even after 264 play calls). Considering the variance on run plays is less than on Pass (a 6 YPA pass with 50% completion would, for example, be one 0 yard play for every 12 yard play), passes would be expected to have a higher yards per attempt vs a run's yards per carry. I'm not sure having another set of plays that can reliably average 6 Yards Per Attempt is going to destroy the game. It's not like anyone has hidden passing plays up their sleeve that are going to exploit certain defenses.
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...
Galactic Empire
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Originally posted by Parab00n
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...
Meaning if you know a certain running play is coming, you can stop it. If you know a certain passing play is coming, you still cannot stop it.
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...
Meaning if you know a certain running play is coming, you can stop it. If you know a certain passing play is coming, you still cannot stop it.
Fumblerooski
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Originally posted by PhireHawk
Most people just say "Wow this game is lame."
And then quit or go inactive.
That's the whole problem and why I still don't agree with with a lot of the answers here, most of which are talking about balance (good agents versus bad agents, rookie vs vet etc).
The point we're trying to make is a visceral, game play experience point. Diablo is a fun game because your guy can wade into a big pile of enemies against all odds and kill them all with flashy visuals and sound - sometimes you'll die, sometimes you won't, but the game is still fun because of how you get there. GLB2 is the complete opposite, the UI is clunky and your players fail constantly, even when put into the perfect position to succeed. Even if you win most of your games it is an agonizing struggle to get there, regardless of if it's veteran or rookie.
Most people just say "Wow this game is lame."
And then quit or go inactive.
That's the whole problem and why I still don't agree with with a lot of the answers here, most of which are talking about balance (good agents versus bad agents, rookie vs vet etc).
The point we're trying to make is a visceral, game play experience point. Diablo is a fun game because your guy can wade into a big pile of enemies against all odds and kill them all with flashy visuals and sound - sometimes you'll die, sometimes you won't, but the game is still fun because of how you get there. GLB2 is the complete opposite, the UI is clunky and your players fail constantly, even when put into the perfect position to succeed. Even if you win most of your games it is an agonizing struggle to get there, regardless of if it's veteran or rookie.
Xars
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Originally posted by Parab00n
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...
Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Meaning if you know a certain running play is coming, you can stop it. If you know a certain passing play is coming, you still cannot stop it.
Guys... No one is arguing against your point. No one. (that I can see)
There are too many 13-15 Yard Catch plays that end up yielding 7-8+ YPA.
The game needs more 7-10 Yard Catch plays that end up yielding 5.5-6.5 YPA.
I'd rather not just use the same few plays each game.
Just because I do it, doesn't mean it's want I want the game to be. I'm pretty consistent in railing against it.
Yea, Trips Counter Strong is amazing when teams blitz or when they put in a defense dedicated to stopping the pass against it. The difference is if you know its coming its extremely easy to stop. Now compare that to Logzilla who has used the same plays for 6+ seasons and you see the difference...
Originally posted by Galactic Empire
Meaning if you know a certain running play is coming, you can stop it. If you know a certain passing play is coming, you still cannot stop it.
Guys... No one is arguing against your point. No one. (that I can see)
There are too many 13-15 Yard Catch plays that end up yielding 7-8+ YPA.
The game needs more 7-10 Yard Catch plays that end up yielding 5.5-6.5 YPA.
I'd rather not just use the same few plays each game.
Just because I do it, doesn't mean it's want I want the game to be. I'm pretty consistent in railing against it.
Parab00n
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Originally posted by Xars
Well let's look at things this way.
In S12, there were 12 Vet Inside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 1 over 6.
There were 23 Inside/OT Rushing plays that averaged over 4 YPC.
That's 38 plays of over 4+. There are 88 potential plays in this category. I'd call 29 of them clearly successful (4+). That's 36% of plays.
In S12, there were 15 Vet Outside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 4 over 6.
There were another 10 plays that averaged 4+ YPC.
That's 29 plays of over 4+ with 19 of them over 5+. There are 51 potential plays in this category. I'd call 19 of them clearly successful (5+). That's 37% of plays.
So if Inside Runs can average 4+ and Outside Runs can average 5+, I don't see anything game breaking with a greater variety of Pass plays at 6+ YPA. Not all; just more.
Remember, few teams are calling 6+ YPA plays because they are calling 7-8+ YPA plays instead.
You keep saying that people would use more pass plays if they averaged more than 6+ YPA, but how many of those 24 pass plays that average over 6 YPA have you used this season? How about last season? The one before that?
Well let's look at things this way.
In S12, there were 12 Vet Inside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 1 over 6.
There were 23 Inside/OT Rushing plays that averaged over 4 YPC.
That's 38 plays of over 4+. There are 88 potential plays in this category. I'd call 29 of them clearly successful (4+). That's 36% of plays.
In S12, there were 15 Vet Outside/Off Tackle HB Rushing plays that averaged over 5 YPC and 4 over 6.
There were another 10 plays that averaged 4+ YPC.
That's 29 plays of over 4+ with 19 of them over 5+. There are 51 potential plays in this category. I'd call 19 of them clearly successful (5+). That's 37% of plays.
So if Inside Runs can average 4+ and Outside Runs can average 5+, I don't see anything game breaking with a greater variety of Pass plays at 6+ YPA. Not all; just more.
Remember, few teams are calling 6+ YPA plays because they are calling 7-8+ YPA plays instead.
You keep saying that people would use more pass plays if they averaged more than 6+ YPA, but how many of those 24 pass plays that average over 6 YPA have you used this season? How about last season? The one before that?
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