Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Galithor
Saying a team with a generally good plan, and Veteran builds, just barely squeaking by your journeyman team is evidence against the all run attack being overpowered is kinda silly I think.

I'm more speaking to the folks (not me and not you) saying "No one is going to be able to beat the Stunners - they are unstoppable and only going to get more unstoppable"

and his game plan wasn't that good in terms of his 2WR D - he left the sweep open and I ran it 20+ times

Originally posted by TxSteve
So what do you think the average yards per carry should be? 0?


Do you think a 100% pass focused defense should be able to hold a 100% pass focused offense to a 0% completion rate? I seriously doubt it!

I am responding to the people who say that the stunners are "impossible to stop"

If builds are similar (and I would expect here they are -- I am 100% run -- they are heavy, heavy run stop -- any points they spent on pass defense may as well not exist in this game) - so I would argue that builds are likely similar in the "run / stop run" comparison. That means (other than SA's) - the tier difference likely doesn't make much difference.

If builds are similar - meaning they can more or less cancel each other out to some degree -- then game planning and RNG are going to be the deciding factors. I would argue this game was close because of game planning -- mine was quite cheezy as I thought it was my only chance (spammed spread inside runs and spammed 2WR sweeps).


So - what do you think the yards per carry should be with a run d vs run o?

What do you think the completion rate and average yards per attempt should be between a pass d and a pass o?



Seneca's builds aren't going to get any better. Yours have a season and a half of growth left. That 5.0 YPC isn't going to be 5.0 YPC in a season and a half. It's going to be 8+. Based on Queen City, probably more like 12+.

Don't get me wrong steve, I've built the polar opposite, and we torched Seneca earlier this season. They're screwed from a "being able to challenge for a high ranking" standpoint. They're going to get killed by a team like mine or yours regardless in the near future as your guys get into professional.

I agree that it's a build issue for the most part. I'm fairly sure that the lack of defensive S* players at Safety and/or LB on Season 1-3 teams is going to hurt them a bunch against the mostly offensive S* players that got built early on. We're seeing more heavily S*'d defensive teams coming up here and there in the rookie-seasoned ranks. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the extremely built offenses.

Like i said the only way to stop the stunners is to sacrifice pass stopping skills and go almost full run stopping. Seneca is proof of that, they have been abused through the air this season.

Originally posted by Galithor
Seneca's builds aren't going to get any better. Yours have a season and a half of growth left. That 5.0 YPC isn't going to be 5.0 YPC in a season and a half. It's going to be 8+. Based on Queen City, probably more like 12+.

true - to some degree.. I've only got 5 points left to get in block tech on my OTs (plus 2 caps possible) (as an example). My O-Line is going to get slightly better...but it isn't going to get dramatically more effective (in my opinion).

The o lineman I looked at - he does have ~20 points of power to add still -- but between those two it is going to take a lot of his remaining points.

also - our HB's are reasonably close to capped in the major skills. They aren't going to get a lot better. My WR's capped their blocking skills early/mid last season -- so while they will add some intim...I'm personally a little unclear on how effective that is going to be.

Given that we have passed rookie/soph/seasoned/journey (half) -- and still have 1/2 journey + pro + vet -- my team is certainly not going to get 40% better...10-15% better at most because of the increasing costs of skills and caps.

Originally posted by Galithor
Don't get me wrong steve, I've built the polar opposite, and we torched Seneca earlier this season. They're screwed from a "being able to challenge for a high ranking" standpoint. They're going to get killed by a team like mine or yours regardless in the near future as your guys get into professional.

I agree that it's a build issue for the most part. I'm fairly sure that the lack of defensive S* players at Safety and/or LB on Season 1-3 teams is going to hurt them a bunch against the mostly offensive S* players that got built early on. We're seeing more heavily S*'d defensive teams coming up here and there in the rookie-seasoned ranks. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the extremely built offenses.

I think you and I are in agreement. Impossible to know now (wish there was a more extensive testing league or server) - but is it possible (if GLB2 lives long enough) that ultimately we have a Vet league with ~20 pass focused o&d / ~20 run focused o&d / ~20 balanced teams o&d -- who would win? would the balanced teams be able to? I'm not sure (but I'm guessing there would be a lot more parity than we have now).

The reason that we have running teams at the tops of all the tiers (in my opinion) is that people aren't focusing on run defenses...if the meta changed to defenses focusing heavily on stopping the run -- there would be passing teams at the tops dominating the ladder...it is simply a matter of running being in the minority...so no one builds for it...and teams don't have to game plan against it all the time

Originally posted by USC_Trojans
Like i said the only way to stop the stunners is to sacrifice pass stopping skills and go almost full run stopping. Seneca is proof of that, they have been abused through the air this season.

Right. It is a build issue. Does that mean maybe defenses need a few more points in order to put up a decent fight against 'extreme' teams? Maybe.


Abused through the air??

they are 10-4 and have given up the least # of passing yards (and rushing yards) in Cheetah.

They lost to the #2 Generals 21-24
they beat #10 Dakota 13-21
they beat #3 Brisbane 13-7

Yes - Air Raid gave them by far their worst loss of the year (and maybe would beat them 10 out of 10 times - I don't know) -- but "abused through the air" doesn't lead to a 10-4 record (unless they are playing me every week).

If they give defenses more points to stopp specialized offenses then balanced offenses will definitely get nowhere...

Originally posted by TxSteve
true - to some degree.. I've only got 5 points left to get in block tech on my OTs (plus 2 caps possible) (as an example). My O-Line is going to get slightly better...but it isn't going to get dramatically more effective (in my opinion).

The o lineman I looked at - he does have ~20 points of power to add still -- but between those two it is going to take a lot of his remaining points.

also - our HB's are reasonably close to capped in the major skills. They aren't going to get a lot better. My WR's capped their blocking skills early/mid last season -- so while they will add some intim...I'm personally a little unclear on how effective that is going to be.

Given that we have passed rookie/soph/seasoned/journey (half) -- and still have 1/2 journey + pro + vet -- my team is certainly not going to get 40% better...10-15% better at most because of the increasing costs of skills and caps.

It depends on how the sim works.

If my D line is capped at 65 Run Block and your OLine is at 80 run block going to 95, then it is quite possible that your 10-15% better is really 50% better. Which is why Gal says that your yards per carry could continue to go up.

Everyone falls back on the fact that skills cost more at higher levels. But no one talks about the VALUE of those high skills. If the sim compares the difference between the lineman, than the remaining skill points you buy may be expensive, but their value is greater than the cost.

It's exactly like finance. Only a big company can make a big investment, but if the return is worth it you go for it.

The default assumption about the value of a high skill may be completely wrong.

Not sure want to change the point totals themselves. A simpler fix would be to adjust the scaling cost of builds within teh defensive side of the game I think. Allowing the defensive skills themselves to scale in cost maybe 10-15% to allow for more points to be dispersed into other categories. Dont want to allow them to stop everything as a specialized def should still be something considered for building but allow those specialized defenses be able to have enough points to play college ball against their weakness maybe.

Pass built Def able to stop the run against a Pass Heavy Offense and put up a fight against a balanced offense while a run based offense would still have the advantage because of specialty but the def would be able to make a few decent stops that its not a steam roll if gameplanned right. 8/10 times maybe the run offense beats a pass defense but its because of the "extra" points by shaving costs that they are able to put up enough of a fight to get those 2 wins?

Originally posted by killershrew
If they give defenses more points to stopp specialized offenses then balanced offenses will definitely get nowhere...

great point.

Originally posted by Xars
It depends on how the sim works.

If my D line is capped at 65 Run Block and your OLine is at 80 run block going to 95, then it is quite possible that your 10-15% better is really 50% better. Which is why Gal says that your yards per carry could continue to go up.

Everyone falls back on the fact that skills cost more at higher levels. But no one talks about the VALUE of those high skills. If the sim compares the difference between the lineman, than the remaining skill points you buy may be expensive, but their value is greater than the cost.

It's exactly like finance. Only a big company can make a big investment, but if the return is worth it you go for it.

The default assumption about the value of a high skill may be completely wrong.


another good point - and of course we don't know the answer - but I would suspicion that moving Block Tech from 90 to 91 is a ~1% increase. If you made your D Line with 65 break block / hold ground caps though -then that would kind of be on you. The game can't exist if builds become meaningless and even crap builds can do well at everything.

Originally posted by killershrew
If they give defenses more points to stopp specialized offenses then balanced offenses will definitely get nowhere...

Specialized should be built to stop Specialized. However there should be a tweak somehow that doesnt drastically make defense overpowered on balance offenses or all thats going to happen is teams in rookie are going to build run stopp defenses to stop the current meta of run offense leaving the air attack open. Then we will be right back here looking to fix the passing game.

I like the idea off buffing against repeat plays best. For every consecutive pass play buff pass defense from expectation.

Originally posted by killershrew
I like the idea off buffing against repeat plays best. For every consecutive pass play buff pass defense from expectation.


Only issue with that is that even with a varied playbook you can still call the same play 3 times in a row cause of RNG. It's not like GLB1 where you have complete control over what gets called in every scenario possible.

I've got 8 different pass plays in Air Raid's medium pass playbook, all at different priorities, and I've seen us go 3 and out running SB Trips - WR Posts 3 times in a row, even though it's not my highest priority play.