I think the Tebow pentikios is the only thing being sucked here. For the record, this discussion began with the comment that said Tebow would not be a successful NFL QB. Your collegiate mancandy love for Tebow is rather overwhelming. I've seen homers before, but you take the cake.
Ballinbob
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Originally posted by dook1e
I think the Tebow pentikios is the only thing being sucked here. For the record, this discussion began with the comment that said Tebow would not be a successful NFL QB. Your collegiate mancandy love for Tebow is rather overwhelming. I've seen homers before, but you take the cake.
I know what began the discussion, but it has clearly shifted course. We haven't been discussing his NFL potential for quite some time. Everybody is entitled to think what they will about his possible pro career because it hasn't happened yet. I don't care about that anymore. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge Tebow is one of the greatest college football players ever. I've provided plenty of factual evidence to support this case. You can't argue with facts. It's not being a homer if you provide facts to support your case. Homers are people that just think their team is the best, players are the best, fans are the best, etc without even considering facts. I love my team and will argue to the end against people that just say crap, but have no evidence to back it up. I'm not afraid to admit if I'm wrong, but you must provide enough evidence to show this. Can you say the same? It hasn't happened so far, even with all the facts I've compiled.
I think the Tebow pentikios is the only thing being sucked here. For the record, this discussion began with the comment that said Tebow would not be a successful NFL QB. Your collegiate mancandy love for Tebow is rather overwhelming. I've seen homers before, but you take the cake.
I know what began the discussion, but it has clearly shifted course. We haven't been discussing his NFL potential for quite some time. Everybody is entitled to think what they will about his possible pro career because it hasn't happened yet. I don't care about that anymore. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge Tebow is one of the greatest college football players ever. I've provided plenty of factual evidence to support this case. You can't argue with facts. It's not being a homer if you provide facts to support your case. Homers are people that just think their team is the best, players are the best, fans are the best, etc without even considering facts. I love my team and will argue to the end against people that just say crap, but have no evidence to back it up. I'm not afraid to admit if I'm wrong, but you must provide enough evidence to show this. Can you say the same? It hasn't happened so far, even with all the facts I've compiled.
Edited by Ballinbob on May 18, 2009 11:12:59
Porch
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Originally posted by Ballinbob
Ok once again you bring up the yardage argument. I've already said that they accounted for a higher % of their team's yards. You haven't said anything about Tebow TDs, lack of turnovers, or QB rating when compared to Leinart or Young. You haven't said anything about the records Tebow holds or how insane it is that he will go down as the leader in rushing TDs and 2nd in passing TDs in the SEC. Why don't you acknowledge that Tebow has done some amazing things and should be considered as one of the greatest players ever? If you can't do that, then you're more stubborn minded than I thought.
Yes, McCoy & Bradford did have a better season passing. They also threw the ball over 100 more times than Tebow. Both McCoy and Bradford are great QBs. But we all know that they play in a league that has no defense. They play football like it's flag football. Hell Colt Brennan had more passing yards than McCoy or Bradford. Does that mean he's a better QB? Hell fucking no.
Maybe next time you should count the games for yourself.
Because in context none of his seasons stand out as being that great. The Young and Leinart discussion started when I said they were a larger part of their team's offense. They were. At which point you jumped to turnovers and passer efficiency. Your problem is that Teabags numbers in any one season just are not that great. His top seasons are fairly pedestrian for his era. His only real claim is he started early in his career and stayed all the way through.
Colt played in a gimmick offense and in a flat out horrible conference.
How do you justify putting him among the best ever when we already have a list of 5-6 QB's who have had similar or better numbers to him in any one season. He is definitely among the top QB's of his era but to use his ranking and try to prop him up as best ever the numbers are just not there.
Ok once again you bring up the yardage argument. I've already said that they accounted for a higher % of their team's yards. You haven't said anything about Tebow TDs, lack of turnovers, or QB rating when compared to Leinart or Young. You haven't said anything about the records Tebow holds or how insane it is that he will go down as the leader in rushing TDs and 2nd in passing TDs in the SEC. Why don't you acknowledge that Tebow has done some amazing things and should be considered as one of the greatest players ever? If you can't do that, then you're more stubborn minded than I thought.
Yes, McCoy & Bradford did have a better season passing. They also threw the ball over 100 more times than Tebow. Both McCoy and Bradford are great QBs. But we all know that they play in a league that has no defense. They play football like it's flag football. Hell Colt Brennan had more passing yards than McCoy or Bradford. Does that mean he's a better QB? Hell fucking no.
Maybe next time you should count the games for yourself.
Because in context none of his seasons stand out as being that great. The Young and Leinart discussion started when I said they were a larger part of their team's offense. They were. At which point you jumped to turnovers and passer efficiency. Your problem is that Teabags numbers in any one season just are not that great. His top seasons are fairly pedestrian for his era. His only real claim is he started early in his career and stayed all the way through.
Colt played in a gimmick offense and in a flat out horrible conference.
How do you justify putting him among the best ever when we already have a list of 5-6 QB's who have had similar or better numbers to him in any one season. He is definitely among the top QB's of his era but to use his ranking and try to prop him up as best ever the numbers are just not there.
Ballinbob
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Your point about them being a bigger part of their offense only pertains to yards. Leinart definetly wasn't a bigger overall part of his offense as Tebow. Most everything in the Gator offense revolves around Tebow's reads and defenses having to focus on stopping Tebow. I'll give you that Young was a bigger part, but he is mistake prone which should reduce his value as a QB. Don't forget touchdowns!!!!!! You keep trying to make it all about yards. Tebow is a TD machine. Tebow didn't really start early in his career. He started his 2nd year. If you consider a 2nd year player as starting early, then when would it not be early for somebody to start? Their senior year? Also, I'd hardly consider Tebow's stats from his Heisman year, 4181 yards and 55 TDs, pedestrian.
So you're saying Colt Brennan's numbers shouldn't matter because he didn't face any good defenses? Similar to Bradford and McCoy who faced some of the worst pass defenses in the country last season?
So you're saying Colt Brennan's numbers shouldn't matter because he didn't face any good defenses? Similar to Bradford and McCoy who faced some of the worst pass defenses in the country last season?
Edited by Ballinbob on May 18, 2009 12:02:02
Porch
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Originally posted by Ballinbob
I'll say the possibly the most impressive stat of all. When Tebow finishes his career he will have the most rushing TDs in SEC history and the 2nd most passing TDs!!!!! Holy crap nobody else can even compare to that. He's done it in the toughest conference against the toughest defenses in the country. He will have more rushing TDs than emmitt smith, herschel walker, bo jackson, fred taylor, jamal lewis, terrell davis, shaun alexander, deuce mcalister, ronnie brown, cadillac williams etc. I could name probably another 2 dozen great RBs that he already has or will have more TDs than. Tebow is going to have more passing TDs than every QB except Danny Wuerffel. That's more than he Manning brothers, Cutler, Couch, Russell, Leak, Grossman, Greene, etc. Hopefully you get the point.
Smith left as a junior and missed games injured.
Walker left as a junior.
Jackson did 4.
Duece spilt time with Felix Jones.
Cadillac and Brown spilt time.
Pretty sure that Lewis left early.
Not sure about Fred.
His TD numbers are the creation of the offense. If you notice the QB's we have looked at who are running a similar offense are putting up similar numbers. Young, McCoy, Smith all put up numbers very similar to what Tebow is doing. It would be one thing if no one else was touching those numbers but his contemporaries are matching him.
The TD's don't impress me because they are largely a team result and not a player result. The fact is they used him as short yardage back which lead to cheap TD totals that impress you. Vince Young had three teammates score double digit TD's. Teabow didn't have anyone else who did more than 6. That will skew the numbers a little.
The spread offense makes QB's look better than they really are. It's impressive but again in the times of which he is playing they are not unheard of except most players no longer stay 4 years.
See the problem is you keep looking and saying the numbers are unheard of in the history of football. I am looking an saying yeah but everyone is doing it now. If Teabag is an all time great then why isn't Vince Young? How do you exclude Leinart, Bradford, McCoy and the host of others who have great numbers.
I'll say the possibly the most impressive stat of all. When Tebow finishes his career he will have the most rushing TDs in SEC history and the 2nd most passing TDs!!!!! Holy crap nobody else can even compare to that. He's done it in the toughest conference against the toughest defenses in the country. He will have more rushing TDs than emmitt smith, herschel walker, bo jackson, fred taylor, jamal lewis, terrell davis, shaun alexander, deuce mcalister, ronnie brown, cadillac williams etc. I could name probably another 2 dozen great RBs that he already has or will have more TDs than. Tebow is going to have more passing TDs than every QB except Danny Wuerffel. That's more than he Manning brothers, Cutler, Couch, Russell, Leak, Grossman, Greene, etc. Hopefully you get the point.
Smith left as a junior and missed games injured.
Walker left as a junior.
Jackson did 4.
Duece spilt time with Felix Jones.
Cadillac and Brown spilt time.
Pretty sure that Lewis left early.
Not sure about Fred.
His TD numbers are the creation of the offense. If you notice the QB's we have looked at who are running a similar offense are putting up similar numbers. Young, McCoy, Smith all put up numbers very similar to what Tebow is doing. It would be one thing if no one else was touching those numbers but his contemporaries are matching him.
The TD's don't impress me because they are largely a team result and not a player result. The fact is they used him as short yardage back which lead to cheap TD totals that impress you. Vince Young had three teammates score double digit TD's. Teabow didn't have anyone else who did more than 6. That will skew the numbers a little.
The spread offense makes QB's look better than they really are. It's impressive but again in the times of which he is playing they are not unheard of except most players no longer stay 4 years.
See the problem is you keep looking and saying the numbers are unheard of in the history of football. I am looking an saying yeah but everyone is doing it now. If Teabag is an all time great then why isn't Vince Young? How do you exclude Leinart, Bradford, McCoy and the host of others who have great numbers.
Porch
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Originally posted by Ballinbob
Your point about them being a bigger part of their offense only pertains to yards. Leinart definetly wasn't a bigger overall part of his offense as Tebow. Most everything in the Gator offense revolves around Tebow's reads and defenses having to focus on stopping Tebow. I'll give you that Young was a bigger part, but he is mistake prone which should reduce his value as a QB. Don't forget touchdowns!!!!!! You keep trying to make it all about yards. Tebow is a TD machine. Tebow didn't really start early in his career. He started his 2nd year. If you consider a 2nd year player as starting early, then when would it not be early for somebody to start? Their senior year? Also, I'd hardly consider Tebow's stats from his Heisman year, 4181 yards and 55 TDs, pedestrian.
So you're saying Colt Brennan's numbers shouldn't matter because he didn't face any good defenses? Similar to Bradford and McCoy who faced some of the worst pass defenses in the country last season?
yeah let's compare the WAC and Big 12. Great case.
You do realize you can score TD's and not be very good do you.
when guys like Romance Taylor and Henry Melton can talk about the 12 and 10 they scored then I will have to go ahead and discount TD totals. TD vultures are far from my uncommon.
Your point about them being a bigger part of their offense only pertains to yards. Leinart definetly wasn't a bigger overall part of his offense as Tebow. Most everything in the Gator offense revolves around Tebow's reads and defenses having to focus on stopping Tebow. I'll give you that Young was a bigger part, but he is mistake prone which should reduce his value as a QB. Don't forget touchdowns!!!!!! You keep trying to make it all about yards. Tebow is a TD machine. Tebow didn't really start early in his career. He started his 2nd year. If you consider a 2nd year player as starting early, then when would it not be early for somebody to start? Their senior year? Also, I'd hardly consider Tebow's stats from his Heisman year, 4181 yards and 55 TDs, pedestrian.
So you're saying Colt Brennan's numbers shouldn't matter because he didn't face any good defenses? Similar to Bradford and McCoy who faced some of the worst pass defenses in the country last season?
yeah let's compare the WAC and Big 12. Great case.
You do realize you can score TD's and not be very good do you.
when guys like Romance Taylor and Henry Melton can talk about the 12 and 10 they scored then I will have to go ahead and discount TD totals. TD vultures are far from my uncommon.
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A sophomore used to be very young to start. Most didn't win jobs until they juniors.
naturally the early entry to the draft has changed that but very few programs have a three year starter at QB.
naturally the early entry to the draft has changed that but very few programs have a three year starter at QB.
Ballinbob
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I never said Vince Young wasn't great. I also never said Bradford, McCoy, or Leinart aren't great. They were/are all great QBs.
Ballinbob
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Ramonce Taylor and Henry Melton LOL... Are you serious? Wait let me get this straight. You think anybody that scores TDs on short yardage shouldn't even have any of their TDs count? So that means the only TDs that count are from long plays? And you think TDs should be discounted when discussing greatness? So the only way to determine greatness is yards? And you think TDs are anymore of a team effort than yards? They both require team work. Guess what...If an offensive line doesn't block for a QB or RB they would have an extremely difficult time accumulating yards. Sounds to me like that's a team effort. If a WR drops a QB's pass guess what, the result of the play is 0 yards. The entire game of football requires team work. No part more so than moving the ball down the field. So I don't know why you want to put so much importance on yards when discussing individuals, but very little on TDs, turnovers, or efficiency. They are all important parts of the game, but there's one big difference. TDs put points on the board. Turnovers prevent you from putting points on the board. Yards do neither. You can win the game if you have considerably less yards than the opponent, but you will never win if you have less points.
Edited by Ballinbob on May 18, 2009 12:55:59
Edited by Ballinbob on May 18, 2009 12:51:17
Edited by Ballinbob on May 18, 2009 12:48:54
dook
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Originally posted by Ballinbob
Ramonce Taylor and Henry Melton LOL... Are you serious? Wait let me get this straight. You think anybody that scores TDs on short yardage shouldn't even have any of their TDs count? So that means the only TDs that count are from long plays? And you think TDs should be discounted when discussing greatness? So the only way to determine greatness is yards? And you think TDs are anymore of a team effort than yards? They both require team work. Guess what...If an offensive line doesn't block for a QB or RB they would have an extremely difficult time accumulating yards. Sounds to me like that's a team effort. If a WR drops a QB's pass guess what, the result of the play is 0 yards. The entire game of football requires team work. No part more so than moving the ball down the field. So I don't know why you want to put so much importance on yards when discussing individuals, but very little on TDs, turnovers, or efficiency. They are all important parts of the game, but there's one big difference. TDs put points on the board. Turnovers prevent you from putting points on the board. Yards do neither. You can win the game if you have considerably less yards than the opponent, but you will never win if you have less points.
You're doing that thing again.
Ramonce Taylor and Henry Melton LOL... Are you serious? Wait let me get this straight. You think anybody that scores TDs on short yardage shouldn't even have any of their TDs count? So that means the only TDs that count are from long plays? And you think TDs should be discounted when discussing greatness? So the only way to determine greatness is yards? And you think TDs are anymore of a team effort than yards? They both require team work. Guess what...If an offensive line doesn't block for a QB or RB they would have an extremely difficult time accumulating yards. Sounds to me like that's a team effort. If a WR drops a QB's pass guess what, the result of the play is 0 yards. The entire game of football requires team work. No part more so than moving the ball down the field. So I don't know why you want to put so much importance on yards when discussing individuals, but very little on TDs, turnovers, or efficiency. They are all important parts of the game, but there's one big difference. TDs put points on the board. Turnovers prevent you from putting points on the board. Yards do neither. You can win the game if you have considerably less yards than the opponent, but you will never win if you have less points.
You're doing that thing again.
Ballinbob
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Well at least we finally got some activity on our league forum. Unfortunately there were only 3 people really involved 
dook
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Originally posted by dook1e
Originally posted by Ballinbob
Ramonce Taylor and Henry Melton LOL... Are you serious? Wait let me get this straight. You think anybody that scores TDs on short yardage shouldn't even have any of their TDs count? So that means the only TDs that count are from long plays? And you think TDs should be discounted when discussing greatness? So the only way to determine greatness is yards? And you think TDs are anymore of a team effort than yards? They both require team work. Guess what...If an offensive line doesn't block for a QB or RB they would have an extremely difficult time accumulating yards. Sounds to me like that's a team effort. If a WR drops a QB's pass guess what, the result of the play is 0 yards. The entire game of football requires team work. No part more so than moving the ball down the field. So I don't know why you want to put so much importance on yards when discussing individuals, but very little on TDs, turnovers, or efficiency. They are all important parts of the game, but there's one big difference. TDs put points on the board. Turnovers prevent you from putting points on the board. Yards do neither. You can win the game if you have considerably less yards than the opponent, but you will never win if you have less points.
You're doing that thing again.
No, dumbass. You're jumping around and chasing your own tail. You continue to bite your own tongue by saying the opposite of what you've said before.
Originally posted by Ballinbob
Ramonce Taylor and Henry Melton LOL... Are you serious? Wait let me get this straight. You think anybody that scores TDs on short yardage shouldn't even have any of their TDs count? So that means the only TDs that count are from long plays? And you think TDs should be discounted when discussing greatness? So the only way to determine greatness is yards? And you think TDs are anymore of a team effort than yards? They both require team work. Guess what...If an offensive line doesn't block for a QB or RB they would have an extremely difficult time accumulating yards. Sounds to me like that's a team effort. If a WR drops a QB's pass guess what, the result of the play is 0 yards. The entire game of football requires team work. No part more so than moving the ball down the field. So I don't know why you want to put so much importance on yards when discussing individuals, but very little on TDs, turnovers, or efficiency. They are all important parts of the game, but there's one big difference. TDs put points on the board. Turnovers prevent you from putting points on the board. Yards do neither. You can win the game if you have considerably less yards than the opponent, but you will never win if you have less points.
You're doing that thing again.
No, dumbass. You're jumping around and chasing your own tail. You continue to bite your own tongue by saying the opposite of what you've said before.
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