Warrior General Games

I'll start with Sure Hands.

It only lets you re-roll straight up drops, not knocked loose drops, which on plateau dots only happens like 2x per 100 targets. So even if you re-roll and catch both, that is insanely underwhelming for VP's.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I'll start with Sure Hands.

It only lets you re-roll straight up drops, not knocked loose drops, which on plateau dots only happens like 2x per 100 targets. So even if you re-roll and catch both, that is insanely underwhelming for VP's.

That is completely incorrect. Here is the full description of Sure Hands VA:

"When failing a catch pass check, the Sure Hands ability gives this player a second chance to retry the roll. Each level gives a +5% chance to allow the second roll. This ability works only on offense."

Pass Check rolls are contested by any defender who is close enough. There is a step by step description Bort wrote about how pass catching works but I'm not quite sure where the link is at the present time. In any event, he explains how the pass check rolls basically function, and the pass check rolls determine far more than if the player 'straight up drops' the ball. Its kind of like how some people assume high catching is worthless because 'no one drops wide open passes in Pro'. There's much more to it than that. Its an in-depth simulation, remember.

yac attack, by people who did not even remotely build the dot for it

I understand your confusion, but you should remember that it often comes down to a 'WR's catching roll check vs. defender's INT/deflect roll check.' What that means, you've noticed most deflected passed usually comes at a point where both the receiver and the defender are going for the ball rather than between the QB and receiver. Now, it seems whatever equation they use is adjusted to favor whoever is closest/in best position for the ball, but as long as a player has a chance to catch or INT/deflect the pass they get roll checks and whoever wins once the situation modifiers and all the bonuses are added in, they get the good result. In that way its similar to the mechanics of break tackle, I guess. In all those situations, I recall specifically Bort said that failing is failing, it doesn't matter if its an easy uncontested roll or the most difficult roll, all the equations know is that you failed in your roll, so if you have the VA to get a second chance, you do. Now, I'm assuming in some situations, the roll the defender makes plus all their bonuses in that situation may make it so that no possible roll the WR makes could catch the ball, or say that no roll a tackler makes could beat the break tackle roll, and I bet the applicable VA still gives you a 'second chance' at this impossible roll, and obviously that is useless. Also there may be situations where a player only has a tiny chance of success, so re-rolling is pretty pointless- although sometimes that second chance will give you the highlight play!

Where I think it would make the most difference is those 50/50 rolls against equally matched opposition. Also, IDK if you ever played D&D but I recall times where the enemy would roll a 3 out of 20 and I'd be licking my lips until I rolled a 2! Those are the times you would be most grateful to have the special skill to re-roll a missed strike, lol!

Now because of the variability its impossible to determine how much Sure Hands will really help. However, I did the calculations assuming even 50% odds and it came out if i remember correctly that the VAs to increase catch +30% are twice as effective as 15 Sure Hands. So, my first thought wass, "this is a no brainer, get the once worth twice as much." Then it struck me that not all catches are on third down, or 8 yards or less. It wasn't a huge sample size but I added up several receivers targets for their entire careers, and guess what I found? The ratio was the opposite of the first I'd found, about 2 passes on 1st or 2nd down for every 3rd down, the same for catches 8 yards or less. I just remember the ratio was exactly the opposite, and I thought "this can't be coincidence". I'm guessing they purposely made a bunch of VAs equally "as good" as the others for WRs- too many to get them all- so that on the average player on the average team, it might not make a difference which they get. However, for a player built with a specific skill set on a team with a specific game plan, they could have a big advantage using the VAs which are best tailored to them.

It seems to me, Mr. Reliable is still the most vital, regardless of what the %s say, because third down is the make or break down and that can determine who wins the game. Also you need it just to counter 3DS. Outside of that, all the WR VAs are really good. You can't have enough. Its not like that at all the positions. Some positions have a lot of VAs with limited usefulness. WR has too many good ones to get them all. You have to choose which is best for you.

Originally posted by psi
yac attack, by people who did not even remotely build the dot for it

What do you consider 'remotely built for the dot'? I used it for my sFB and to my surprise it worked really well, and he only had 50 strength, 60-some carry, 15% break tackle, 15 Slippery, 12 Spin and 15 Quick Feet. Plus he was big and most of the guys trying to tackle him were not. Obviously that isn't a tacklin' breakin' machine, but he could still break some tackles in space and the YAC Attack seemed to work excellent as he'd break tackles at a much higher rate right after the catch. Now that I type this I figure that isn't what you meant by "not even remotely built for the dot". I think it can work well for a guy who isn't built 'all-out' to break tackles, but it seems useless for guys with very little tackle-breaking skills at all. TBH I always thought it seemed useless altogether but then I realized many tackles take place right after the catch, and my FB had a high volume of catches, usually short, plus the times the D guesses right and you get hit right as you catch a screen pass, for a player like him, it was very useful. For some WRs, I think they get 15 VA of it and it never fires once in their career.

Bash, where you are confused about sure hands is you seem to think sure hands let's you re-roll the anti-pd/anti-int battle roll, but it absolutely does not re-roll this. If it re-rolled this it'd be the best VA in the game instead of a pile if garbage that doesn't do anything.

Literally the only time it let's you re-roll is situations where you beat the defender (or there us no defender) and have the chance to catch the ball, but fail. This is exactly situations where a drop would register on the pbp.

This game being so old is funny because understood and tested truths somehow get warped and lost to history. Sure hands being trash on plateau dots us one of those truths.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Bash, where you are confused about sure hands is you seem to think sure hands let's you re-roll the anti-pd/anti-int battle roll, but it absolutely does not re-roll this. If it re-rolled this it'd be the best VA in the game instead of a pile if garbage that doesn't do anything.


it's not the same like Long Reach but just for offense?

Originally posted by Bash E. Bull
What do you consider 'remotely built for the dot'? I used it for my sFB and to my surprise it worked really well, and he only had 50 strength, 60-some carry, 15% break tackle, 15 Slippery, 12 Spin and 15 Quick Feet. Plus he was big and most of the guys trying to tackle him were not.

Clearly your recFB is not a dot that "isn't remotely build for breaking tackles" as 12 spin, 15% BT, 39 VP's, and 50+ str are all things that many many dots don't have while still burning VP's on yac attack VA.

At the end of the day, your base break tackle score matters, so dots with 6 strength or no bt% or no bt SA's should not take YAC attack.

Originally posted by Kenshinzen
it's not the same like Long Reach but just for offense?

No, it is not. This is seen in both the wording of the VA's, as well as the %'s (sure hands let's you reroll 75%, long reach let's you reroll 45%). Keep in mind bort somewhat generally tried to keep VA' s balanced, so if these were directly fighting against each other it doesn't make sense one is almost twice as strong.

Sure Hands: When failing a catch pass check, the Sure Hands ability gives this player a second chance to retry the roll. Each level gives a +5% chance to allow the second roll. This ability works only on offense.

Long Reach: This player has an exceptional wingspan. When failing a pass deflection check, the Long Reach ability gives this player a second chance to retry the roll. Each level gives a +3% chance to allow a second roll. This ability works only on defense.

I'm not sure where to find it, but there's an "anatomy of a catch" quote by bort somewhere, and you'll see the pd/anti-pd battle roll is a separate step from the catch roll. This is exactly why sure hands is trash, because you only ultra-rarely win the anti-pd roll then go on to lose the catch roll and drop the ball.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Bash, where you are confused about sure hands is you seem to think sure hands let's you re-roll the anti-pd.

Out of curiosity...What VA do you think does this then? Because there are plenty of catches made after a PD by the WR.

Not saying you're wrong, but if it's not sure hands, than what is it?

Second Wind gets my vote for most useless VA that I see a ton. Not talking at plateau, where it's value gets much more reasonable - I mean the TONS of younger dots I see taking it because they have NO stamina, and they think it'll fix their energy magically.

Adding that energy at the start of the 4thQ, if you're one of those ALG only stamina dots (and you should be, but that's a different topic) - takes you away from the 10 energy floor for *maybe* 2 snaps at best. You could take almost ANYTHING else for your position, and be a better dot. Second Wind is only a decent value on dots WITH stamina, but that maybe only hit ~55 range, and need a little topping off later in the game. Those dots, it's got decent value. Young dots with no stamina, UTTER waste.

(edit - for example, If they play much of any ST snaps, and they have energy problems - you're infinitely better off taking Long Distance Runner, for the % reduction on energy usage than wasting the points on SW. Should be pretty obvious just watching the energy burned in the pbp, so it boggles my mind how often I still see young dots with SW.)

Also, seconded on Sure Hands being a waste on mature WRs/recTEs/scat backs. It rerolls straight drops. Can be "okay" on eHBs that are trying to be scat-ish but don't have the catching, but even then I feel like the opportunity cost is dubious.

Originally posted by Q&A

June 1, 2011 Question In what order do the Deflect, Intercept and Catch rolls take place? Is it 1) Deflect 2) Int 3) Catch? If the Catch roll is last, does that mean that the sure hands VA only works on plays that would have resulted in a dropped pass?

Answer 1) Int 2) Deflect 3) Catch Deflect near-success can impede the catch chance tho, the idea being that they got their fingertips on it but not enough to fully smack it down. sure hands only works on a play that would have been a drop, but that includes drops because of that decent defender roll


So the semi-rare plays where you see "deflected by soandso" and it ends up a catch anyways, are partial deflects where the defender lost the deflect roll, but was close enough to get a partial deflection. Since a partial deflect just puts a penalty on the catch roll phase, Sure Hands helps there - but I think there's a lot better circumstantial VAs you could take in it's place for how infrequent those seem to happen.

You do see a hell of a lot more of those partial deflect catches in the lower levels, when the DBs don't have the jump yet to win the deflect outright.

I suppose another way to say it - most plateau receivers, have enough catching to make Sure Hands worthless since they'll still win those partial deflect plays. The more catching you have, the worse the value of Sure Hands gets.

Originally posted by Bash E. Bull
That is completely incorrect. Here is the full description of Sure Hands VA:

"When failing a catch pass check, the Sure Hands ability gives this player a second chance to retry the roll. Each level gives a +5% chance to allow the second roll. This ability works only on offense."



I've had this debate with Wise before, and he convinced me.

The problem is that it's a 2 roll system, and the DB/LB always wins the first roll because of better ALGs and relevant SAs / VAs.

The WR does not get a chance to catch the ball until after the defender has done his thing.

I don't have the link for this but afaik, it's legit.
Originally posted by

Originally posted by Bort July 29, 2011

Question~~ In this cb vs WR roll (step 4), does Jumping always come into play for the WR like it does for the cb (step 2/3)? or Is WR jumping only for "special" catches like high throws or diving catches? Has the above information been changed or updated since it was posted? Can you elaborate on the WR vs cb roll at all? At the very least, is it logical given real life pass interference rules, or do players actually fight for the ball?
Answer~~ The interaction is still the same. It's pretty much that whoever has the highest "get the ball" roll gets to act first. This includes your vision, jumping, catching, strength attributes, and catch/swat SA's/VAs/pcts. Jumping improves the WR catch roll for all catches, but much more so for jumping/diving catches.

The actual catch roll is separate

Edit: wow, day late & a buck short

Oy... I'm gonna get pasted here because I'm generally the only one against this VA but I absolutely think DvG is the (one of the) Worst VA's out there. Let me break it down from the description;

"The bigger they are... Each level of DvG gives you a 1% bonus to the success rate of tackling a player that is heavier or stronger."

Ok... lets start with the fact it's a max 15% bonus. The worst of all possible bonuses. Not 3% where you would get a 45% bonus... or 5% where you would get a 75% bonus... but 1%. You can't get any lower. Add to that it's only gonna work for tiny dots. LB' generally need not apply (unless you build your tiny... in which case, IMHO, you've already screwed the pooch). So we're talkin CB's mostly (and some Safeties). Even then, if you're building a 5 foot nothing, 130 pound CB just to get max speed... well... uh... yeah. You're not only gonna fail most of your tackle rolls but also struggle with defending passes. Sure... you'll be hella fast... but unless you add on Strength (I'd say around 75 for a DB dot built to the minimums of height/weight) and jumping (lookin at around 90, IMHO)... you'll always be at a disadvantage against big TE's , Power WR's, and PHB's. Even WITH the tiny 15% bonus, you'll likely still fail the roll.
Now let's get to the rest (and the worst) of the description.

"If the tackle could not have been made without the bonus of DvG, the tackler uses DOUBLE the energy normally used to make the tackle, and also loses morale."

Essentially it's telling you your dot is going to get steadily worse and worse every time it wins a DvG helped tackle. So by the 4th quarter, then you NEED the dot at it's best, you're hurtin on both Morale and Energy... hell.. you're likely on the bench in favor of the backup because you're spent. Energy and Morale levels effect outcomes of plays. Every time you lose Energy and Morale you become less effective at your job... including pass coverage and TACKLING. So maybe you save a long run/play with your DvG. Then, when you need to stop the next one you fail the roll because of the damage from the last one.

I say, build your dots right and you don't/won't need DvG to save yer butt. Or... get Death Grip instead that gives you a 3 % chance (meaning 45% at 15 in the VA) of hangin on and gettin dragged along, slowin down the runner and letting the rest of the team come and gang-tackle him (much more effective anyways).