Warrior General Games

Working on Offense first. Defense is a mirror obviously, though the Man/Zone split will need to be done.

Anyway, here's the spreadsheet that's viewable by all: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yXH1KAtwGUQZcThx9stiNH49Ve__lJ-jjJfqnc4AJh8/edit?usp=sharing

So far six (6) of the Top 10 Vet Ladder teams have finished their season against the Top 10. RIF is playing Brood and 1980's is playing Himalayas.

So the following data is the Offensive Breakdowns of the Top 10 versus itself. There are some obvious data quality issue with this approach. The number of games played by each team isn't equal. Style matters. How much SP is invested across each team into Rushing versus Passing matters.

That said, I believe that restricting the universe of games to the Top 10 against itself gives us the best (flawed) data.

Summary Data (6 of 10 teams - will update further after tonight's games)

Rushing is averaging 5.18 yards per carry with turnovers. Passing is averaging 3.14 after turnovers.

This requires some more assumptions, which while reasonable individually, do add to the (un)reliability of the data. Example, Rushing fumbles by HBs tend to be a TurnOver less than 50% of the time. Passing fumbles (QB sacks & WR Fumbles) are almost 100% of the time a Turn Over. There are almost as many Passing Fumbles as there are Passing INTs (though the data is skewed by Team).

I think this is the "best" data standard we can hope to have, though I wouldn't call it a GOLD standard. I hope you understand what I just stated and we're not arguing about semantics.

In fact, I hope this doesn't lead to any argument.

I'm not sure Bort and/or Corndog have ever seen the data presented this way before. What the analysis means for the game is incomplete unless you have specialized knowledge of the game engine.

Hence, it's more for them then the player base. But I think this method will illustrate some issues. Perhaps the Passing changes made in the recent past are enough once there are builds at Vet to fully take advantage of them.

Originally posted by Xars


Rushing is averaging 5.18 yards per carry with turnovers. Passing is averaging 3.14 after turnovers.



Maybe because the top teams in Vet are built for rushing? 1980s and Brood is almost all run. Kentucky, RIF and Tcejorp's HBs are the main weapon on offense. That is the top 5 teams.

Originally posted by Xars

Hence, it's more for them then the player base. But I think this method will illustrate some issues. Perhaps the Passing changes made in the recent past are enough once there are builds at Vet to fully take advantage of them.


Yeah, we need to see how a team, built to throw the deep ball, fairs in Vet with these changes.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Maybe because the top teams in Vet are built for rushing? 1980s and Brood is almost all run. Kentucky, RIF and Tcejorp's HBs are the main weapon on offense. That is the top 5 teams.

Next iteration is to look at SP expenditures. Though you would think that more SP spent on Rushing vs Passing would be offset by Defenses but maybe not.

Or maybe it’s just that people know how to get value out of Rushing SPs so they spend more there.

Originally posted by Xars
Next iteration is to look at SP expenditures. Though you would think that more SP spent on Rushing vs Passing would be offset by Defenses but maybe not.

Or maybe it’s just that people know how to get value out of Rushing SPs so they spend more there.



It's the OL expenditure on Run vs Pass prot. DL has to go huge into pass rush to get any result where OL can get away with 50/40. If I could make a DE or DT that only needs 40 tech and 40 power and still get pressure things would change a lot. (pulling power away from run by letting DL get more against it)

In addition to that the CB/WR roll is a contested CIT vs Swat. WR's never get open on break away unders, and very rarely vs deep routes (even against SLOW Cb's)

Third is the stamina drain and morale on HB's. HB's (PB's in particualar) can stay standing with 80 carries. 70% Conditioning and 100% morale isn't that far off the norm.

Fourth is a more general concern that's Always been around. Defense has to prepare for everything. We're not allowed to specialize like an offense is. At most you can get 2-3 pieces doing a singular job where as an offense can have 11+ players all built to do something well.

Oh god here comes the cries and whines again. Yes the RB have high carrying but they are built for it as well as their offense usually. Most teams are not built much for passing.

If you built a defense to truly not allow rushing you would do it well. Hell every time my teams are at vet we don't struggle against the run on defense ever.


Adder man I still think your argument is dumb about the Online issue. If they did the change you want, then ya your dline would sack a qb every play within 1-2seconds. If a Online was built to stop your dline then they would be 100% terrible run blockers. How do you expect the Online to be even closed to balance or compete if you want them to be ass without more SP.

I get your concept, but you have refused to give an actual solution. That is because there is NOT a solution for it in this game. If you nerf blocking as you say then the dline becomes so good that an offense would struggle to score more than 14pts a game at vet. The absolute best defenses every season end up being leagues better than anyone below top 3. Dline does well against the run already with normal parameters and that's with online having tech 80+ and most dline brb around the same. A dline can be built to have 90 brb and pass rush tech, an oline really can't or they will be terrible overall.

Originally posted by Adderfist
If I could make a DE or DT that only needs 40 tech and 40 power and still get pressure things would change a lot.

.

40/40 are poor skill levels though. There’s no real reason they should generate success.

Sure, plenty of teams under invest in Pass Blocking and shouldn’t.
Is an OLine with 50/40 adequate? Can’t say it should be.


LogZilla currently has pretty good balance between Run and Pass Blocking. It’s one reason why LZ has lower Rushing #s but higher Passing #. Though looking at the effectiveness overall, over investing in Run Blocking is how you get 6+ YPCs which more than offset the weaker Passing numbers.

It seems.

There’s also the issue of S*, etc.

How many of the Top 10 teams have a S* HB?

All of the Top 10 have a S* HB.

How many S* QB, WR and TEs are on those teams?

QB: 4
TE: 9
WR: 3

Lack of S* allocated to the Passing game hurts the numbers. Though 16 total S* is more per team then HB (10).

Salary is an issue though.

Updated the spreadsheet with the missing 4 teams to include their Top 10 games so far.

Added a color coded heatmap.

Pretty clearly there's a strong correlation between high Rushing YPC and Ladder ranking. S

ince all of the Top 10 have a S* HB, is it Run Blocking Skills (SP investment) on the OLine/TE/WRs?

Is it game mechanics?

Is it that Defense isn't being built to stop the Rushing game by the 6-10 teams?

I think there are a number of reasons that passing is sub-par.

I think first and foremost, we just have a dearth of effective passing plays. Plays like Clearouts should be a good passing play, but is not - because the QB is ready and more than willing to throw it to the HB in the flat who is 4 yards behind the LoS, with a LB right on top of him, 18 ticks into the play with no pressure coming what so ever. There are tons of plays like this where the check downs seem over the top in terms of frequency and speed they're used. Which ruins like half your passing play options right out of the gate.

Another issue is that the current interaction between DB and receiver is extraordinarily binary. Because I KNOW my DB can't get burned, I can just put 95+ deflecting on all my defenders. Because the offense knows the defense is going to do this because they can't get burned, they are forced to stack absurd CIT. This is what makes TEs so effective is their natural bonuses to said CIT that WRs struggle to get. I don't think this is healthy, and it certainly isn't interesting.

Another issue seems to be that Pass Blocking does very little. My Salvo team has the entire oline as pure pass blockers, because, why wouldn't they be? They're not shutting down pass rushers, in fact, they're pretty pedestrian. I don't really notice a difference between them and my RIF olinemen who have 40 Pass Technique and power, versus 70+. If we don't get rewarded for investing in pass protection, then why not just put those points into run blocking instead and have a balanced offense?

Head Fake and Route Elusiveness are garbage and should test the DBs Pursuit instead of their Man Awareness.

But probably beyond all that. The QBs just don't actually read the field. They don't see blatantly open receivers and this is basically on every single passing play - and I still see it happen with the same frequency with a S* QB who is now at 82+ Pass Awareness. And its not like the rate they miss receivers has gone down any noticeable amount. They are just blind out there. Even if we fixed everything else, until QBs can actually read the field, it's all pointless.

Beyond that however, if we ever get to a point where offenses are putting up 6 YPA and 6 YPC against each other as top 10 teams, then every game is just going to be a back and forth shoot out. Which I don't think anyone is exactly clamoring for either.

The passing game is shit. Give the OCs the chance to choose progression and that would be a start.

Originally posted by Cybertron
Maybe because the top teams in Vet are built for rushing? 1980s and Brood is almost all run. Kentucky, RIF and Tcejorp's HBs are the main weapon on offense. That is the top 5 teams.

Thing is, cause and effect - perhaps the reason we all rank so highly is specifically how much we lean on the run, and almost all top 10 teams have a dominant HB on them too.

There is some truth to passing being a little underwhelming in some regards - but I also think not a lot of teams are built to take advantage of it at the moment and it is stronger than the numbers suggest because of that.




There's the problem of coverage players making much better reactions against faster targets, it's easier to react to a quick cut than a slow one, reacting to the ball is a lot easier if the target is moving fast and you are trailing them rather than moving slow and you being right on top of them, a lot of things acting backwards and punishing good coverage positioning... making just stacking deflecting the easiest choice to make.

Originally posted by Xars
Updated the spreadsheet with the missing 4 teams to include their Top 10 games so far.

Added a color coded heatmap.

Pretty clearly there's a strong correlation between high Rushing YPC and Ladder ranking. S

ince all of the Top 10 have a S* HB, is it Run Blocking Skills (SP investment) on the OLine/TE/WRs?

Is it game mechanics?

Is it that Defense isn't being built to stop the Rushing game by the 6-10 teams?



It takes a different defense to shut down a power runner and an elusive runner, you can slow down both - but to really stonewall them takes different skill sets.

You can stop a passing defense of any kind with one kind of defense, and since the pass rush is a joke at the moment you can focus your d-line almost entirely on run and be good.

Originally posted by ellix

Beyond that however, if we ever get to a point where offenses are putting up 6 YPA and 6 YPC against each other as top 10 teams, then every game is just going to be a back and forth shoot out. Which I don't think anyone is exactly clamoring for either.



6 and 6 is too high and we'd have 80 point games.

We're better off with 4 and 5.

Currently it's 5+ and 4-.

The real question is why.