Warrior General Games

I know a lot of people have abandoned hope of a good Shifty WR, but I was wondering if a few qualifications could be made for its build possibilities.

1. CiT wouldn't need to be very high at all--assuming Head Fake went off enough and therefore there was enough separation that it wouldn't even be a factor quite so often. Catching Grip could also be a good deal lower for the same reason.

2. Could go with less vert and diving, assuming QB was decent.

3. The direct relationship between Route Technique and Route Elusiveness with their DB counterparts, Man Awareness and Coverage Technique aren't precisely known. Everyone keeps assuming Route Elusiveness has a one-to-one inverse relationship with

If, given that the above is speculatively true, could there still be a case to be made for the build? Has anyone built a successful Shifty build--perhaps even with their S*?

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/85481

Not possible unless S*, needs 90+ of both route tech and route elusiveness and a lot of sprinting.
WR's don't need vert or diving, leave them at 25 or below.
Hands, and CIT should be maxed, on any WR.

There are too many skills and not enough points to go around for it to work on a non S* due to how expensive route elusiveness is, separation only matters if you can keep it, so the build won't really work with 70-80 sprinting, needs to be at least 90 to really get separation when HF does fire. And the WR needs to be viable if HF doesn't fire as well, which is why CIT and RGrip need to be maxed, you can't have a player who's useless if an SA doesn't fire.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/224563/1873289?player_id=134273
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/215781/442129?player_id=134273


feels good when happens but it doesn't show often against good teams cause many defenses has high man awr

Originally posted by Merik
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/224563/1873289?player_id=134273
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/215781/442129?player_id=134273


feels good when happens but it doesn't show often against good teams cause many defenses has high man awr

Mind if I ask what kind of level range we're talking about on the relevant skills?

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/85481

Not possible unless S*, needs 90+ of both route tech and route elusiveness and a lot of sprinting.
WR's don't need vert or diving, leave them at 25 or below.
Hands, and CIT should be maxed, on any WR.

There are too many skills and not enough points to go around for it to work on a non S* due to how expensive route elusiveness is, separation only matters if you can keep it, so the build won't really work with 70-80 sprinting, needs to be at least 90 to really get separation when HF does fire. And the WR needs to be viable if HF doesn't fire as well, which is why CIT and RGrip need to be maxed, you can't have a player who's useless if an SA doesn't fire.

My point is this, though: Have we over-estimated the level required to make Head Fake go off? Can the difference be made up by not using First Step and taking Quickness 5-10 points lower? And instead of First Step, maybe throw more points into Balance and using Catch in Stride to actually make use of the separation.

There's perhaps another alternative altogether: not building the WR to maximize Head Fake chance but building it just to maximize Route Elusiveness itself--meaning although Technique is cheaper, still focusing less on it in order to focus on separation instead of cut quality.

I'm a bit curious about your comment about jumping. Decent Rec Awareness can make up for lower jumping to some extent, but I know for a fact some solid veteran CBs that are 6'2"-6'3" have 45-50 in vert. It just seems to me like a lot of WRs have far too small of range.

Originally posted by Oofty
could there still be a case to be made for the build? Has anyone built a successful Shifty build--perhaps even with their S*?

Guess you haven't heard of the LogZilla Boys. All the builds are open. Open Playbook too (if you don't have GLB2Scout I'll tell it to you). All the data you and everyone else in the community need to know.

Here's Shifty stats, playing WR1 and WR2 out of 3WR sets. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/97637
For 3 seasons of Vet & the Total:
Targets: 385, 394, 336, 1115
Rec: 181, 201, 188, 570
Drop: 10, 7, 10, 27
Yards: 3038, 2956.5, 2654.5, 8649
Avg: 16.78, 14.7, 14.11, 15.17
YPA: 7.89, 7.50, 7.9, 7.75
Catch%: 47.01%, 51.02%, 55.95%, 51.12%

Here's S* Shifty Belgarion, playing WR3 exclusively. http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/97220
For 3 seasons of Vet & the Total:
Targets: 892, 846, 826, 2564
Rec: 549, 497, 490, 1536
Drop: 43, 39, 40, 122
Yards: 7621.5, 6773.5, 5908, 20303
Avg: 13.8, 13.62, 12.05, 13.21
YPA: 8.54, 8.00, 7.15, 7.91
Catch%: 61.55, 58.75, 59.32, 59.91

Neither have any significant RE. RE seems to get countered by Man Awareness on CBs which means there's a SP mis-match. The WR has a high cost to trigger RE and the CB has a low cost to counter.

In terms of efficiency, neither of these builds is hampered.

S* Belgarion has a 59.32% (S13) chance to catch 12.05 yard pass. That's a fail rate of 40.68%. Fail rate^3 = .067. So throwing to him 3 straight times yields a 93.26% chance of a 12.05 yard completion (ala First Down). That equates to an average of 14.85 First Downs per drive.

Non-S* Shifty has a 55.95% (S13) chance to catch 14.11 yard pass. That's a fail rate of 44.05%. Fail rate^3 = .085. So throwing to him 3 straight times yields a 91.45% chance of a 14.11 yard completion (ala First Down). That equates to an average of 11.69 First Downs per drive.

It's not the "Shifty" build per se. It's the fact that they DON'T have any RE.

My two other WRs are Speedster builds BUT I invested in RE with them thinking that high-end speed with RE would create a lot of separation. It didn't happen. I won't re-create all their stats here other than their Fail Rate^3 = .174 and .116, respectively. Or avg First Downs per drive of 5.745 and 8.562.

Shifty runs a blend of their routes. WR1 is only at WR1 and WR2 is only at WR2. Shifty plays both. If his build was equal (in terms of efficiency of the other two), then his overall numbers would be a blend of those two. His First Downs per drive should be between 5.745 and 8.562. It's not - he's at 11.69. That's WAY, WAY out of the range. He is clearly a superior build.

All of his Receiving Skills are higher than WR1/WR2 except RE.
He has less Quickness, Sprinting and Snap Reaction with only Silver FS (instead of Gold).
He has more Conditioning and Heart with slightly more Balance, Vert and Diving. (Gold Mr. Reliable may be helping a little on the Rec Grip, but I don't see it fire that much.)

The direct and opportunity cost of RE is simply way too high.

It's really not that debatable.

If you eschew RE, what's the benefit of the Shifty trait over Speedster? Are the Route Tech and Receiving Hands bonuses worth enough to make up for the lack of Speedster bonuses?

Originally posted by Nyria
If you eschew RE, what's the benefit of the Shifty trait over Speedster? Are the Route Tech and Receiving Hands bonuses worth enough to make up for the lack of Speedster bonuses?

Don't know that yet. Perhaps some other team can help with that.

Originally posted by Xars
Don't know that yet. Perhaps some other team can help with that.



Perhaps just going with Egoist in lieu of Speedster to get raw abilities, and then the 10% to Rec Hands and Tech--without the penalties seen in the other catching traits?

Originally posted by Oofty
My point is this, though: Have we over-estimated the level required to make Head Fake go off? Can the difference be made up by not using First Step and taking Quickness 5-10 points lower? And instead of First Step, maybe throw more points into Balance and using Catch in Stride to actually make use of the separation.


Keep an eye on this guy's career:

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/175248

Originally posted by Oofty
My point is this, though: Have we over-estimated the level required to make Head Fake go off? Can the difference be made up by not using First Step and taking Quickness 5-10 points lower? And instead of First Step, maybe throw more points into Balance and using Catch in Stride to actually make use of the separation.

There's perhaps another alternative altogether: not building the WR to maximize Head Fake chance but building it just to maximize Route Elusiveness itself--meaning although Technique is cheaper, still focusing less on it in order to focus on separation instead of cut quality.

I'm a bit curious about your comment about jumping. Decent Rec Awareness can make up for lower jumping to some extent, but I know for a fact some solid veteran CBs that are 6'2"-6'3" have 45-50 in vert. It just seems to me like a lot of WRs have far too small of range.

No, one of my first WR's was a non S* attempt of above.
Rtech and RElusiveness go hand in hand. Tech is your Wr's ability to quickly execute his routes. Without it they'll get bogged down at their breaks, take rough wide cuts when changing direction and generally run their routes slower. Without Route Tech, Route Elusiveness is meaningless because you allow the CB more time to recover from any fake your Wr may make.

As for jumping, watch WR replays, and look at reception %ages. Even with 20-25 vertical Wr's still succesfully make jumping catches which are relatively rare. It's extremely rare to see a WR attempt a jumping or diving catch and not catch it due to range. Even with poor QB's its just rare. I don't think theres many extra catches to be had in a season by investing in vertical, it's much more useful for Defense to invest in vertical as it actually can help them break up an extra dozen or so passes a season, but it simply doesn't work that way for receivers.

If a WR is to be shifty, that WR must be fast to take advanage of that shiftiness. First Step and CIS are both must's for the dot, more so first step because its more important to get open to make the catch than it is to run after the catch. It's why this simply doesn't work on a non S*. The cost of sprinting, RE, quickness, catching skills, balance, and conditioning is simply too high to really make use of it. You won't be able to get them all high enough to be viable without the S* cost discount.

Even on my S*, I was only able to get balance to 60, and that was at the cost of route tech and RE which I initially planned to have both above 90. It simply can't and won't happen as a non S*. If you think we're wrong, then build one for yourself and see how high you're able to take the relevant skills.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
If you think we're wrong, then build one for yourself and see how high you're able to take the relevant skills.

How high are you taking Speed/Quick/FW in hypothetical build?

I like it. This is kind of what I had in mind all along in my mind, but I just hadn't really committed it to GLB2Scout.

If you could do it over again, is there anything you'd change about the build? Has the Speed:Quickness ratio been good, or would you maybe lower Speed a bit to bring Quickness up? Maybe Snap Reaction or Carry Awareness?

Clearly, he puts up some really nice numbers, and he's dominated almost every defense he's played. From what little I've seen here, though, he gets a big burst off the line, but I haven't been able to find really clear cut evidence of Head Fake going off at a really regular clip--but this may have more to do with it being less pronounced since Quickness and Footwork are lower. Part of me wonders if when Speed is 93+, if it might just make more sense to go with Silver in Catch in Stride and Silver in Prime Time for the morale and energy--not to mention the automatic balance roll pass.

It just doesn't seem like CIS is going off enough. While I absolutely agree, in theory, the value of Sprinting in separation following the fake, I wonder if the magnitude of the fake just isn't big enough at 65 Quickness to give it time to go off.

That said, I'm actually really impressed with the build--and I'd call it a *really* successful experiment. I especially liked this play:

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/215003/2087849?player_id=85481

He started with 80 sprinting 80 quickness his first 2 seasons of vet but then was respecced for more sprinting and less quickness. Definitely more effective with less quickness. Head fake really doesn't fire that much even with both Rtech and RElusiveness where I have them. Remember those are the two attributes that cause it to fire, you really do need above 90 each, and even then it still won't fire that much, as most every CB has 85+ man aware and cov. tech.

Without high sprinting and first step the build wouldn't work. That's why the idea just can't work as a non S*, and even as a S* there still aren't enough points to go around to fully idealize the build. CIS really doesn't fire that much, balance is the attribute that causes it to fire, and its expensive and unfortunately a luxury for most WR's. Even my S* only has 60 balance, and thats considered high for a WR. You'll have a hard time forcing it to fire on a regular basis on S*, a non S* won't even be able to reach that much balance.

If I had to do it over again, he'd have even less quickness, maybe 55, and instead more conditioning, balance and receiving consistency. However I wouldn't really bother building this kind of WR again. I would scrap route elusiveness entirely and ignore head fake as an SA. Get 100 sprinting, more conditioning, and balance and just go First Step, CiS, and Prime Time, or use my S* WR to build a YAC WR with high speed, balance and power running, or elusive running instead of power. Non S* Wr's should just be focused on being fast, good hands, and able to run routes. It's really tough to focus on anything else with the costs of a regular player.

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/140040
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/player/140043

As much as I don't like to admit it, a lot of what Xars says about passing and RE are true. RElusiveness, is simply too expensive with too little return on investment to be worth while, the S* I posted may have been good (thanks to bhall for play-calling), but I honestly think he would have been even better had I ignored RE and Head Fake. However if you're set on doing it, you must get Rtech and Relusiveness above 90 each along with 90+ sprinting. Those three things have to happen, otherwise it's a waste of points in RElusiveness. And even if they do happen I still think it's a waste of points.