Warrior General Games

I could very well be missing something.

Looking in stobie's virtual player thing.

10 agi / 10 awa / 10 speed - 1 in everything else (2 in stamina)

Zone specialist / quick feet / workhorse all selected

Both start at 19

To go 19 to 20:
man aware: 55
zone aware: 60

To go 39 to 40:
man aware: 135
zone aware: 148

89 to 90
man aware: 388
zone aware: 424


What am I doing wrong? that wouldn't make sense if accurate....right?

I think it depends on the position. Man Aware, I think, is cheaper for CB's while Zone Aware is for FS's and I think SS's as well, based on the usual strengths of each position.

Thanks Nyria - someone else said what you said to me via chat.


I don't get it though. Why make zone more expensive for CBs? Especially after how bad it has historically been - and how much programming time has been spent on it since then. Why not just make them equal?

using my player example above (which includes zone specialist)

Getting to 90 with man aware: 12,131 (with man aware)
Getting to 90 with zone aware: 16,296 (with zone aware)

Difference of 4,165 skill points that you are sacrificing to go zone.

I just don't understand WHY that would be?

Originally posted by TxSteve
Thanks Nyria - someone else said what you said to me via chat.


I don't get it though. Why make zone more expensive for CBs? Especially after how bad it has historically been - and how much programming time has been spent on it since then. Why not just make them equal?

using my player example above (which includes zone specialist)

Getting to 90 with man aware: 12,131 (with man aware)
Getting to 90 with zone aware: 16,296 (with zone aware)

Difference of 4,165 skill points that you are sacrificing to go zone.

I just don't understand WHY that would be?

I don't know if this is a good reason, but I think it has to do with the idea that CB's usually cover man to man: If someone becomes a CB he's likely to be better at man coverage than someone who becomes a safety. There are zones, where everyone is playing zone, and man coverage, which often includes a shell, and possibly a lurker or a robber. Any man coverage, even with shell/lurker/robber, CB's tend to be playing man, and those who tend to be playing zones in a part man part zone coverage are usually other positions.

Anyway though, if you want a CB who specializes in zone coverage then you can choose the Zone Specialist trait on making him. If that trait isn't enough to make Zone Awr cheaper than Man Awr for that CB, then I'd say the difference is certainly too large.

Who knows but every position has different SP costs for the same skills, which isn't really meaningful outside of building a KR/PR imo.

Having just run a quick test, with Zone Specialist it almost evens the cost for CB's but it still leaves Man Awr a tiny bit cheaper than Zone Awr, so as Rob bolded, my opinion having tested it is that the difference is too large.

Originally posted by Nyria


Anyway though, if you want a CB who specializes in zone coverage then you can choose the Zone Specialist trait on making him. If that trait isn't enough to make Zone Awr cheaper than Man Awr for that CB, then I'd say the difference is certainly too large.

Yes - even with zone coverage trait -- man coverage is still cheaper to get to 90 (14939 vs 16296)

just makes me wonder if there was an error made somewhere like we saw 8 or 10 seasons ago with some traits/skill costs

That is easy enough to tell, but if you are using Stobie's tool to test that, I imagine Stobie would already have alerted Bortdog.

My point would be - I believe Corndog has worked hard to improve zone coverage as a viable option (for situations other than pure run teams).

I would also assume that a butt load of work went in on the front end of programming as there really are quite a large number of zone plays.

Why not go ahead and make the skill point costs equal -- so they are viable, equal options?



Now if I look at linebackers:

Zone Specialist trait selected:
Zone Aware 20-80 costs 10740 (5500 skill points less than a CB)
Man ware 17-80 costs 16158 (way way way more)


Man Specialists trait selected:
zone aware: 18-80 costs 13254
man aware: 18-80 costs 13168



Quite the opposite here - LB's are encouraged to train zone aware based on the costs. And just to further muddy the waters -- probably one of the reasons TE's are so dominant in the passing game. Man Aware is an expensive skill.

fwiw, most coverage LB build discussions I have seen frequently include the advice not to invest in zone awr at all. I don't agree with that advice, but I don't think people are giving it because of relative SP costs as you suggest.

I think it's a valid suggestion, but I would advise not to assume it is an error.

If it were my choice, I'd make zone awr cheaper than man awr for all positions but CB. For CBs with no traits affecting it they'd be equal cost.

In general I think zone coverage is a little easier than man to do adequately, so in general it should cost less. However, someone placed at CB is likely to be especially good at shadowing receivers so I'd make it equal for them. If a CB can't shadow people well but is fast and can tackle he may well be turned into a safety. Then if you wanted a zone CB and selected Zone Specialist, Zone Awr would still cost less for that CB.

I agree Nyria.

Also makes me wonder about the possibility of CB's with zone aware and man aware ~60-70 or something. Could a combo defense be possible and viable? Would open up things a great deal on defense and potentially (but not certainly) begin to get us away from the same plays being run over and over and over exclusively.

Originally posted by TxSteve
I agree Nyria.

Also makes me wonder about the possibility of CB's with zone aware and man aware ~60-70 or something. Could a combo defense be possible and viable? Would open up things a great deal on defense and potentially (but not certainly) begin to get us away from the same plays being run over and over and over exclusively.

My Rookie team is running a Combo defense or will once I get enough SPs to invest in both. I worked out the SPs and there was enough to do both decently.

why aren't you more annoyed that zone aware costs more than man aware...even with zone specialist trait selected?