Warrior General Games

As if you need a reminder; here were the changes made to the game five days ago:
- Defenses should react better to certain outside rushes
- Slightly lowered baseline blocking levels
- Made blocks in open field more difficult to maintain
- Fixed depth chart fallbacks to more logically fill positions
- Amped up out of position penalty a bit


I and other heavy running teams do seem to agree that the changes made have been significant. I haven't nailed down the differences yet -- yes, some games - the running game still looks fine (usually mismatches) - but in other games - the defense has been buffed to terminator level, perfect decision making, super speed, perfect read LB's.

I think the real problem lies with the fact that whatever changes Corndog has made to the sim...they've dramatically reduced the occurrence of pancakes. I understand these are less than perfect stats to look at as there is such a significant factor based on your opponents builds...but I still believe there is something meaningful here.

So - I looked at pancakes this season for my team (100% run) and Yorick (100% run) to see if there was anything that seems to have changed on ND (nerf day).

My Team (minnesota stunners)
Game 1: vs redmong - 164 pancakes
Game 2: vs Akron Dawgs (seasoned team) 122 pancakes
Game 3: vs Luelinks 148 pancakes
Game 4: vs Whodats (seasoned) 90 pancakes
Game 5: vs EEA 134 pancakes
Game 6: vs Rancho (seasoned) 67 pancakes
Game 7: vs Winnipeg 94 pancakes
Game 8: vs Hawks (seasoned) 160 pancakes
----Nerf-----
Game 9: vs Gangsta 63 pancakes
Game 10: vs Black Hole (seasoned) 94 pancakes
Game 11: vs Da Borg 56 pancakes
Game 12: vs Miami Dolphins (seasoned) 18 pancakes

Pre Nerf - 122 pancakes per game average
Post Nerf - 58 pancakes per game average

-------------------------------
Now looking at Yorick - who has two occasions where they played a ladder opponent once pre nerf...and once post nerf..

Game 1 vs Roch: 199
Game 2 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 43
Game 3 vs MMarmy: 58
Game 4 vs Rhode Island: 116
Game 5 vs Col: 104
Game 6 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 75
Game 7 vs Detroit: 35
Game 8 vs Drinkin: 143
----NERF----
Game 9 vs Tampa Bay: 20
Game 10 vs Lincoln Red Imps: 22
Game 11 vs NY: 53
Game 12 vs Nebraska Cornhuskers: 22

Yorick Pre Nerf Average: 97 pancakes per game
Yorick Post Nerf Average: 29 pancakes per game

So: Stunners see pancakes drop more than 50%
and: Yorick sees pancakes drop more than 67%

Over the course of 6 days Yorick plays Lincoln 2 times (so minimal build difference) and pancakes drop from 75 to 22...more than 66%

Similarly Yorick plays Nebraska in week 2 and week 10 - a longer period but still not that significant build wise and pancakes drop just under 50% from 43 to 22.

As has been discussed elsewhere - the problem with the GL roll out was the LB pathing..they bunched up in the middle of the line. The problem wasn't too many pancakes. Pancakes are the life blood of a running game. To tweak the sim SO dramatically that pancakes are reduced by 50% - 67% is absolutely insane.

Imagine if suddenly the 'acceptable' pass completion rate dropped from 60% to 30%...that is basically the sort of nerf that has been handed to the running game here, in my opinion.

I'm sure there are other examples out there - but the fact that Stunners and Yorick run 100% makes the comparisons at least somewhat valid. Teams that run less...will have fewer pancakes (I think). So those drop offs could be attributed to game plans / etc. If you're a running team - please post your pancake summaries here -- I seriously doubt that these two teams are somehow outliers...while I'm getting flamed, etc - I'll go look at D'Haran and see if they've had a similar drop off.

TXSteve, you are totally onto something. As I mentioned earlier after ND, my TE Tethias had his pancakes drop dramatically. If those percentages are accurate, we're talking an incredibly draconian run-blocking nerf out of all proportion with the problem.

Tons of guys don't run directly into the line anymore. This is pretty much a LDO moment. >_<

An 80 yard run can also result in a player picking up more than one pancake from the lolblocks that continue back at the line of scrimmage. To actually get a fair comparison you want to look at number of pancakes wrt length of play (in ticks).

Clearly there were some big changes, but overall I feel like big plays and scoring are down across the board so that would put a huge dent into pancakes alone. It was pretty common to see a guy get pancaked 2-3 times on 1 long runs and even more so on Kick-off returns.

Originally posted by TxSteve
Imagine if suddenly the 'acceptable' pass completion rate dropped from 60% to 30%...that is basically the sort of nerf that has been handed to the running game here, in my opinion.

Pretty good way to put it.

If I reset specifically because of changes and then that happens though I'd probably be done.

Originally posted by o The Boss x
Pretty good way to put it.

If I reset specifically because of changes and then that happens though I'd probably be done.

They want to make the game look like Air Raid v Atlantic City with 1100 yards combined passing, because you know, realism.

Originally posted by Sardonik00
They want to make the game look like Air Raid v Atlantic City with 1100 yards combined passing, because you know, realism.

Yea, 600+ yard rushing games were realism as well....

Corndog hates rushing.com

Originally posted by Parab00n
Yea, 600+ yard rushing games were realism as well....

Reality has a well known passing bias.

Originally posted by Sardonik00
They want to make the game look like Air Raid v Atlantic City with 1100 yards combined passing, because you know, realism.

Can't tell if sarcastic or not, Romo and Stafford combined for a thousand a year or two ago. In a way a more passing sim is more 'realistic' if you're comparing it to the NFL.

My pancake numbers have also dramatically dropped, and my times Reverse Pancaked gone up significantly. I have 2 WR's with ONLY run blocking skills, 30+ Run Block Tech, 28 Run Block Power, 30 Balance, that are getting maybe 1 pancake and getting reverse pancaked 4 times a game. I am either going up against some monster CB's, or run blocking has been nerfed beyond belief. Some examples:

http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/66012
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/game/66091

Two scrims with the same team, 1 day and 0 SP apart, literally the same builds. One game before the nerf, one after. For the record, you can clearly tell by my traits that my linemen are more technique-heavy but the technique-power gap is only about 5-6 points at any time

Actually Wikipedia lists the highest passing game ever as: 1,000 yards, Matthew Stafford, (520) and Matt Flynn, (480) on January 1, 2012.

It's not just pancakes, although pancakes are a great indicator of one of the big changes Maizehound made that he didn't document specifically. Anywhere, here's my thoughts on each of the specific changes he did list:

- Defenses should react better to certain outside rushes

This is a mixed improvment/mega nerf. On the one hand, I love that LB's and other players on the far side of the scrum no longer charge straight into the scrum. That's a fantastic improvement, and hats of to Corny for finally getting it working.

The meganerf part comes from the fact that LB's, CB's, etc. no longer seem to need any kind of check before running to the perfect location to blow up a play.

For example:
http://glb2.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay/66428/1317195

On that play, the LILB takes off at the snap for the edge of the line, then turns up field. This is exactly how you'd expect a defender to play except for one MAJOR problem. He's actually ahead of the play the entire time which means he's not playing the play, he's running a script that tells him exactly how to completely wreck this play, and the same thing happens on pretty much all outside sweeps.

There is even a hole in the line he could have shot through at about tick 20, but he ignored that in his race to get outside. Oh, and he managed to cover significantly more ground than the HB who's faster than he is.

- Slightly lowered baseline blocking levels

By slightly I can only guess that the Maizehound meant "Nerf Power blocking completely". This change, more than anything, is what really wrecked Yorick at first, and I suspect plays a huge role in TxSteve's observations on pancakes.

Prior to the change, Yorick was built as a power blocking team because our whole Vision™ was breaking opponents down. This worked great as we could push defenders out of the way or pancake them to create holes for our elusive backs to shoot through. Over the course of a game, the defense would lose most of its morale, and at that point, we could run pretty much anything on them with success. It's why we tended to pick up more yards and score more points as games went along.

Post nerf, nobody on the defense was getting moved. They'd slide off blocks like melted butter. They'd actually push our o-line backwards. Go back to that play I linked. I have an o-line with power blocking the 50's (remember, early sophomore), getting held and/or pushed back across the entire line. The FB, who also has 50 run block power is getting pushed around by a freakin' CB.

Conversely, those run teams that are technique based seemed to have much less difficulty in their run games post-nerf, and when you look at seasoned and journeyman teams where it's likely most blockers have had enough SP's to build up all aspects of run blocking, the effect becomes insignificant versus other changes Corny made.

- Made blocks in open field more difficult to maintain

Again, this should be translated to "impossible to maintain at low levels". I could link practically every play where a CB goes up against an outside blocker as proof because practically every time, the CB wins. Either everyone in rookie and sophomore ball is building pure run stopping DB's, or CB has set the bar to failing blocking rolls higher than young players can be reasonably expected to make.

- Fixed depth chart fallbacks to more logically fill positions

This was a great fix. And it should have ended here, but...

- Amped up out of position penalty a bit

This makes absolutely no sense. Once you make the obvious exploits impossible (ie. HB at QB on QB Rollout), there is no point in further nerfing OOP more than the 5% it already got. Why does a HB or TE who lines up at WR lose his abilities to catch passes? Why does a blocking TE who lines up at FB suddenly forget most of what he knows about blocking?

Anyway, to me the ultimate post-QB Rollout "fixes" evaluation is how I "fixed" Yorick's offense. First, we're making major changes to all blocking builds. Second, we're running MORE QB Rollout since HB Sweeps are dead, HB inside runs are dead, and HB off tackle is much less effective. Now I know we'll start to get some sweeps back as we get more points into those HB's, but even then, you're competing against a defense that is faster than the offense and knows exactly where to go at the snap. That's kinda tough to beat on a regular basis.

In other words, the net result of Maizehound's QB Rollout nerf is to make QB Rollout more popular because it's far and away the best run in the new meta. It has a higher TFL ratio now, but who cares. I can't sustain drives running the ball with any regularity, so might as well go for homeruns every time I'm up to bat. (mixed sports metaphors ftw!)

Conversely, if you're a pass-first time, just spam Corner Threat the entire game with your best WR at WR3. You will instantly become an amazingly awesome offensive coordinator (well, provided you have a QB who can throw the ball).

Originally posted by Thunderoo
An 80 yard run can also result in a player picking up more than one pancake from the lolblocks that continue back at the line of scrimmage. To actually get a fair comparison you want to look at number of pancakes wrt length of play (in ticks).

Just pointing out again that this analysis means nothing...