Warrior General Games

Since adding First Step to my right tackle, I've noticed her dropping back extremely quickly on the snap, which is causing problems with the pass protection since it allows the DE to come farther forward. I've documented a lot of examples where this fired at the snap, which is easy to spot because the RT is off-set back from the line of scrimmage when the play starts (you sometimes see the same thing with DEs looking like they're across the line when FS fires). The reason I think this is bugged behavior instead of intended is that I've never seen that on guards or centers. Both my guards and my center have first step, but they don't drop back that far the way my RT does, and I've never seen a replay of them being back away from the line of scrimmage at the start of the play. This really needs to get looked at, because right now First Step is a liability for offensive tackles in pass protection.


http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106457
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1104811
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1104842
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1104892
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1104954
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1105044
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106151
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106164
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106895
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1107310
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1108837
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1108914
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1109453

I have seen this before as well and I would post links but I think jd has posted plenty

I don't see the problem. She's dropping back fast, but not overly far. She's still meeting the DE at a reasonable spot. I don't think she's getting any advantage from it, but I don't see how it's a liability.

Originally posted by TruthHammer
I don't see the problem. She's dropping back fast, but not overly far. She's still meeting the DE at a reasonable spot. I don't think she's getting any advantage from it, but I don't see how it's a liability.
#1) It only happens to OTs, not guards or centers. That suggests it's not intended.

#2) It's a problem because it greatly decreases the margin for error. When the OT drops back so far, it means the DE doesn't have to push far back to cause the QB to move or even to get the sack. Look at the first link: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106457 My RT never even loses her block, but it doesn't take long at all for the DE to get close enough to attempt a tackle on the QB. The First Step dropback shrinks the pocket and makes it much easier for the defense to create pressure or get sacks. It would be much better if OTs were like Gs & Cs, and did not have First Step fire on the snap for pass plays. Now that speed DEs can't be split wide like in the old DPC, there's no benefit to it while it can hurt the offense.

Originally posted by jdbolick

#1) It only happens to OTs, not guards or centers. That suggests it's not intended.

That's not surprising, since Cs don't drop to form a pocket, and Gs barely drop.

Originally posted by jdbolick
#2) It's a problem because it greatly decreases the margin for error. When the OT drops back so far, it means the DE doesn't have to push far back to cause the QB to move or even to get the sack. Look at the first link: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106457 My RT never even loses her block, but it doesn't take long at all for the DE to get close enough to attempt a tackle on the QB. The First Step dropback shrinks the pocket and makes it much easier for the defense to create pressure or get sacks. It would be much better if OTs were like Gs & Cs, and did not have First Step fire on the snap for pass plays. Now that speed DEs can't be split wide like in the old DPC, there's no benefit to it while it can hurt the offense.

Like I said, she's getter there faster, but she's not going back any further than normal. Here's the other ROT from that same game without FS: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106850 In both replays, they drop back 3-4 yards. This is the point of first contact in your replay: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/jdot.jpg/ The ROT doesn't look any further back that the LOT who did not have FS fire. Then the LOT gets quickly shoved backwards, and the QB drifts to the right. The resulting sack had nothing to do with FS.

There may be some benefit. By getting back faster, she has time to recognize her assignment and meet them with some forward momentum, like she does here: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1104892 Admittedly, the benefit is small, but I still don't see any liability.

Originally posted by TruthHammer
Originally posted by jdbolick

#2) It's a problem because it greatly decreases the margin for error. When the OT drops back so far, it means the DE doesn't have to push far back to cause the QB to move or even to get the sack. Look at the first link: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106457 My RT never even loses her block, but it doesn't take long at all for the DE to get close enough to attempt a tackle on the QB. The First Step dropback shrinks the pocket and makes it much easier for the defense to create pressure or get sacks. It would be much better if OTs were like Gs & Cs, and did not have First Step fire on the snap for pass plays. Now that speed DEs can't be split wide like in the old DPC, there's no benefit to it while it can hurt the offense.

Like I said, she's getter there faster, but she's not going back any further than normal. Here's the other ROT from that same game without FS: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1106850 In both replays, they drop back 3-4 yards.

In that replay the LT makes first contact with the RE only 1-2 yards back and then drops back further because the RE is trying to go past him on the outside.

Originally posted by TrevJo
In that replay the LT makes first contact with the RE only 1-2 yards back and then drops back further because the RE is trying to go past him on the outside.

Which replay? Not jd's. That's the one I took the screenshot from. Both tackles drop to the same level without contact. One with FS, one without.

Originally posted by TruthHammer
That's not surprising, since Cs don't drop to form a pocket, and Gs barely drop.
That's a good reason for fixing it so that OTs aren't dropping so far when the rest of the linemen do not.

Originally posted by
Like I said, she's getter there faster, but she's not going back any further than normal.
Look at these replays from the last season and notice where my RT was engaging back then:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9613837
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9615261
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9616168
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9617526
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9617828

Originally posted by
There may be some benefit. By getting back faster, she has time to recognize her assignment and meet them with some forward momentum, like she does here: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780098&pbp_id=1104892 Admittedly, the benefit is small, but I still don't see any liability.
First, it's not your job to judge whether or not there's any liability. Furthermore, just let me decide what is best for my player. I think I've earned the right to make that decision. The reality is that this is behavior you only see for OTs, not guards or centers. It's also true that dropping back so far greatly reduces the margin for error since it only takes being pushed back a little for the defender to then be on top of the QB. Whether you want to blame First Step, higher speed, or whatever, it's clear that dropping back so deeply can be a concern. If it's working as intended, then I guess I'll make a suggestion that OTs not be allowed to drop so deeply away from their assignment, but first I'd like to know if it is working as intended.

Originally posted by jdbolick

Look at these replays from the last season and notice where my RT was engaging back then:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9613837
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9615261
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9616168
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9617526
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1723839&pbp_id=9617828


On all of these replays, the faster DE engages her before she can fully drop back, so you don't know how far she would have gone. The screenshot I posted from a play that you claimed shows she dropped back too far, clearly shows she did not drop back any further than the LOT who did not have FS fire.

It's clearly not an issue with FS, and it sounds like you're reluctantly beginning to acknowledge that. From what I've seen here, the drop back distance is consistant for any OTs that are not first engaged by a faster DE. That leads me to believe this is working as intended. I'll file it, so Bort will have visibility, and can make a change if he chooses to, but I haven't seen any evidence that it's a bug.

It is an issue with First Step because it does cause a deeper drop. I gave undeniable proof that she's dropping farther now than she did last season, and it can obviously be a problem. The idea that I'm "reluctantly beginning to acknowledge that" is just completely ridiculous. If anything, I'm stifling the urge to blast you for trying to tell me what is or isn't a liability for my players.

Originally posted by jdbolick
It is an issue with First Step because it does cause a deeper drop. I gave undeniable proof that she's dropping farther now than she did last season, and it can obviously be a problem. The idea that I'm "reluctantly beginning to acknowledge that" is just completely ridiculous. If anything, I'm stifling the urge to blast you for trying to tell me what is or isn't a liability for my players.

If you expect us to be able to help you, then relax, take a deep breath and stop attacking those giving their opinions of what is happening.

Things like,"it is not your job" and "I'm stiffling the urge to blast you" will not help this problem be resolved as a bug or as not a bug.

So please refrain from making this personal or the thread will be locked until cooler heads can prevail.

TruthHammer shouldn't have decided what I was acknowledging, nor what is supposedly best for my players. I provided replays proving that there is a difference between how that OT acted last season and this season, while I also pointed out that Cs & Gs do not have the First Step effect in question. I'm not asking for help because I'm not looking for anyone else to confirm what I already know about this being a problem. All I'm hoping for is that the information I have collected be forwarded to Bort or whoever else might be familiar with the pass blocking code.

Originally posted by

I'm not asking for help because I'm not looking for anyone else to confirm what I already know about this being a problem.

Anytime that you post in the bugs forum you are in fact asking for help and for the bugs team to "confirm" what you think that you are seeing.

You provided a few examples that the first bug mod that replied in the thread does not agree with you on. That means that there will be 2 more bug mods come along and look at it when they get the chance.

We are not here to be your messaging service and to simply run tell Bort everything that an agent thinks he needs to see. We are here to evaluate the evidence and have 3 bugs mods make a ruling on whether they feel like it is a bug that warrants passing on or if it is not a bug and no further action needs taken.

See below if you have any further questions:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3684419


Originally posted by

Rule #3 of the Bugs Forum - we have a Bugs Moderation Team for a reason. It is fine to post examples of issues you believe are bugs or to help identify a bug. It is, however, not your place to state whether an issue is a bug or not.

Rule #4 of the Bugs Forum - you will not always agree with the final resolution of a bug. That is completely understandable. If you have a problem with anything in the Bugs Forums, please contact one of the Leads or Bugs Coordinators. If they do not address your issue to your satisfaction, then contact Catch22 via private message. If you are unhappy with how a bug was classified or what my final determination was, please contact me via private message and we will discuss it. It's possible that the process is wrong and if that is the case, I'll be more than happy to revisit our determination. Please, however, do not create a new thread about the issue - it will be locked without any further consideration.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1780103&pbp_id=1586258

that's disgusting tbh