Warrior General Games

I'm sure this is somewhere been posted before, but this is one of my favorite replays of it I've ever seen.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1740632&pbp_id=8460428

Man cover dots leaving their coverage when the QB is behind the line of scrimmage cannot be working as intended. This replay shows just how silly it is.

That QB tucked the ball and started running so the defense reacted.

Are you saying that the QB should be able to go back into a throwing stance and hit an open man after tucking the ball?

Originally posted by Pwned IRL
That QB tucked the ball and started running so the defense reacted.

Are you saying that the QB should be able to go back into a throwing stance and hit an open man after tucking the ball?

I think his issue might be the QB retreating from the defense, causing in more lost yards? Only thing I could think of.

Originally posted by Pwned IRL
That QB tucked the ball and started running so the defense reacted.

Are you saying that the QB should be able to go back into a throwing stance and hit an open man after tucking the ball?

I'm saying that a defensive player isn't going to completely abandon is coverage because a QB left the pocket. What's the point of scrambling on this game if it isn't even remotely realistic? I don't even care about the QB not throwing to a completely uncovered receiver, though that's pretty lol. A defender should not be leaving his man in that situation. The QB is 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage ffs.

a defender in man coverage shouldn't leave his guy until the qb gets to the los, and if he does, the qb should be able to throw it to the wide open mother fucker who he left

Originally posted by bug03
a defender in man coverage shouldn't leave his guy until the qb gets to the los, and if he does, the qb should be able to throw it to the wide open mother fucker who he left

I agree with this 100%

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1756393&pbp_id=4162105 - this is the only replay I remember seeing this year where a rushing QB scrambled after he was supposed to throw. It looks much better here - though the CB looks to go after the QB before he crosses the line of scrimmage though the QB is pretty close to the line of scrimmage. Don't see anything wrong with this but the replay GM puts up doesn't look right.


Probably would be way too complicated to code something where if a QB was looking to run toward the line and then throw to an uncovered receiver that a defender leaves to go after the QB - but that's whole 'nother point.


I'd say we need more replays but it's pretty hard to find this kind of replay and see how the defensive dots would react.

I'm going to say this is intended and give this thread a Not likely a bug but I could be overruled.

My feeling is that the sim is intentionally coded as to when the QB tucks the ball, no matter where he is, there is no going back. This action would be controllable by the QB scramble/run settings in his tactics. The more often he is set to scramble to run, the quicker he will tuck the ball and then the defense reacts. By the same token, if he is set to scramble often, but not run then he will run back and forth and all over behind the line without tucking the ball until he ultimately crosses.

Not likely a bug - will file in BZ.

Pretty sure this has been stated somewhere.

Ah here we go, from the Q/A Wiki. Sorry for the formatting, the wiki doesn't lend itself to looking good when copy/pasted
The relevant information is in the second half of the question and answer
Bort
February 11, 2011

Question
Does SYM work on a QB who is running a called pass play, but has pulled the ball down to run? If so, does it depend on if they are outside the pocket as to which ability they get (break tackle v. Spin)? Follow ups on those points: Since it seems that receivers don't turn around and start blocking until the QB has crossed the LOS, I was hoping for a little help in breaking the onslaught of tackles from when the QB tucks the ball and every D player has instant recognition that the QB is running. Also, since all of the defenders have left the receivers open down field, can the scrambling QB untuck the ball and throw it? (Example from 'determined not a bug') http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1547393&pbp_id=4122961&flash=1 The bug was closed because it was determined that receivers could block, they either 'all' failed a vision check, or (more likely) they cannot commit to block until the QB has crossed the LOS, unless they were already commited to block prior to the pass. Conclusion: Maybe code it so that blockers can react at the same time as defenders, give the QB a chance to beat those defenders with SYM, or let the QB throw it to all those wide open dots.

Bort Answer:
Yes and no to the first two questions. Defenders and blockers both have to pass vision checks to start blocking or following the QB. It may be that the vision checks for the blockers tend to be harder for most blockers (who often have less vision that defenders) to pass vs the high vision defenses out there. The QB cannot currently exit the "run" mode once he's tucked the ball. He can scramble around until he tucks the ball, but I think if he could go back to throw mode, we'd probably see that become pretty overpowered as receivers suddenly were open due to the defenders breaking off. We'd probably have to add more logic and tactics options for likelihood of following the QB when he scrambles, etc.

Yea on gm replay that is messed up.. There is something definitely wrong with that logic.. Specially since most qbs don't tuck the ball on scrambles till after crossing the LOS anyway..

I cant count the number of times a qb has fumbled the ball at least real life for running with the ball in one hand to leave the option to throw until passing the LOS.

And come on to to program a defense to react while a qb is still 4 yards behind the LOS to a tucked ball is crazy. Specially with the majority of defenses playing man coverage there is no way in hell a defense can play man coverage and watch for the qb tucking the ball 4 to 5 yards behind the LOS.. The logic here definitely needs to be addressed for some kind of balance.

Been there, done that:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4580338

That being said, it looks like the logic has improved considerably: The defenders reactions seem quite reasonable here.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1727778&pbp_id=8576419

On the other hand, those defender dots are all low level morons.

Originally posted by alindyl
Pretty sure this has been stated somewhere.

Ah here we go, from the Q/A Wiki. Sorry for the formatting, the wiki doesn't lend itself to looking good when copy/pasted
The relevant information is in the second half of the question and answer
Bort
February 11, 2011

Question
Does SYM work on a QB who is running a called pass play, but has pulled the ball down to run? If so, does it depend on if they are outside the pocket as to which ability they get (break tackle v. Spin)? Follow ups on those points: Since it seems that receivers don't turn around and start blocking until the QB has crossed the LOS, I was hoping for a little help in breaking the onslaught of tackles from when the QB tucks the ball and every D player has instant recognition that the QB is running. Also, since all of the defenders have left the receivers open down field, can the scrambling QB untuck the ball and throw it? (Example from 'determined not a bug') http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1547393&pbp_id=4122961&flash=1 The bug was closed because it was determined that receivers could block, they either 'all' failed a vision check, or (more likely) they cannot commit to block until the QB has crossed the LOS, unless they were already commited to block prior to the pass. Conclusion: Maybe code it so that blockers can react at the same time as defenders, give the QB a chance to beat those defenders with SYM, or let the QB throw it to all those wide open dots.

Bort Answer:
Yes and no to the first two questions. Defenders and blockers both have to pass vision checks to start blocking or following the QB. It may be that the vision checks for the blockers tend to be harder for most blockers (who often have less vision that defenders) to pass vs the high vision defenses out there. The QB cannot currently exit the "run" mode once he's tucked the ball. He can scramble around until he tucks the ball, but I think if he could go back to throw mode, we'd probably see that become pretty overpowered as receivers suddenly were open due to the defenders breaking off. We'd probably have to add more logic and tactics options for likelihood of following the QB when he scrambles, etc.


There is our answer.

Not a bug.

Originally posted by IdRatherFlyFish

There is our answer.

Not a bug.


On the contrary the bug would now be that the entire defense comes after the QB when he is 7 yards behind the LOS. Even on some of the other plays posted, receivers (whether it be FB/HB/WR/TE) are being abandoned to pursue the QB which, more often than not, results in a hardcore loss of yardage.

Regardless of whether the QB can "exit the run" once the ball is tucked, the secondary shouldn't logically pursue him, until he crosses the LOS, if they're man-covering a receiver.

And the vision check needs to be made considorably more difficult for the defense, its pretty much an instant reaction from the secondary when the QB tucks it at all but the lowest levels.

Likely not a bug....they are right, its not a bug, its just programmed horribly. Any RL QB who 'tucks' the ball (which never happens anyway, even Vick usually has a one handed ball grab so he can still throw it or 'fake throw' which was mentioned earlier) will 'untuck' and throw to an open WR thirty yards down field or in the endzone (http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1547393&pbp_id=4122961&flash=1). Its pretty obvious that the programming and logic for after a tuck needs to have a revision. Scramble QB's have always generally sucked, this makes them suck even more. So yeah...not a bug, just a general programming problem. Wheres that forum, can we post there??