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Forum > Discuss GLB Issues With Catch22 > ISSUES DETERMINED NOT BUGS > Blitzing disabled against counters? - ISSUE DETERMINED NOT A BUG
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jdbolick
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The SS on this play was supposed to blitz, but instead he looks like he's forced to mirror the TE until the HB makes his cut back on the counter: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1698702&pbp_id=4984243

The other two examples didn't show the SS mirroring the TE downfield as he did in the first replay, but they also do not show him blitzing at the snap the way a defender would against a normal run play.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1698702&pbp_id=4982403
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1698702&pbp_id=4985022
Edited by IdRatherFlyFish on Aug 5, 2011 16:42:44 (No activity in 2 months)
Edited by Androth on May 25, 2011 09:58:10 (NEEDS MORE INFO)
 
Androth
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I think he sees the pitch and starts mirroring the HB which the TE also happens to be doing. That leads him directly into being blocked before the HB changes direction. I'd like to see more examples of this happening to say one way or the other though.
 
jdbolick
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Originally posted by Androth
I think he sees the pitch and starts mirroring the HB which the TE also happens to be doing. That leads him directly into being blocked before the HB changes direction. I'd like to see more examples of this happening to say one way or the other though.

All of that is irrelevant. When you're blitzing a defender he's not supposed to mirror anyone, he's supposed to blitz. That's what happens when you blitz a LB, S, or CB against a conventional running play, which is why I speculated that maybe blitzing is actually disabled against the counters.
 
Androth
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Originally posted by jdbolick

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1698702&pbp_id=4982403
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1698702&pbp_id=4985022


In both the above examples the SS get's blocked long before you could tell if he was still blitzing or not. Do you have an example where a player continued blitzing after the ball was handed off?

 
tragula
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In the first example the SS doesn't mirror the TE, but make a a path to a tackle point. Likely he passed a vision check to abort the blitz in case of a run. This is likely why you cannot see this in non counter plays (since the path to the ball carrier will make the CB move forward).

In the other example the SS start moving toward the backfield but the TE blocks too soon to see anything.

I agree with JD that a blitz should mean a blitz. But I also think that disabling the vision check can lead to defenders rushing by a sweep missing the HB (maybe this is good). Best option to make that a setting in the DPC.
 
Mightyhalo
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Yeah blitzes against counters can be fail because like tragula said the blitzer makes a path towards a tackle point if the blitzer is coming from the side of the field where the counter will end up, which means the blitzer normally runs right into a blocker because the rusher starts one way, then moves the other way.

Now if you have a blitzer set to blitz a counter from the side the rusher initially makes his move before turning around and going the other way, he will almost always stuff him for a loss because that blitzer isn't fooled by the initial direction of the runner.

It blows but I guess we have to create plays with that in mind.


Edited by Mightyhalo on May 25, 2011 08:52:55
 
jdbolick
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Originally posted by Androth
In both the above examples the SS get's blocked long before you could tell if he was still blitzing or not. Do you have an example where a player continued blitzing after the ball was handed off?

The SS doesn't move forward in any of the examples, which means he wasn't blitzing in any of them.


Originally posted by tragula
In the first example the SS doesn't mirror the TE, but make a a path to a tackle point.

No, because the SS doesn't take anything near that path on the weakside handoff. The SS is clearly being forced to react to the TE if the TE doesn't initially engage him on the counter, almost like he's being tractor-beamed into that block.
 
Androth
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Originally posted by jdbolick
but they also do not show him blitzing at the snap the way a defender would against a normal run play.


Originally posted by jdbolick

When you're blitzing a defender he's not supposed to mirror anyone, he's supposed to blitz. That's what happens when you blitz a LB, S, or CB against a conventional running play, which is why I speculated that maybe blitzing is actually disabled against the counters.


We'll also need many more examples like the first one to really say anything. My use of the word mirroring in my first point was probably a bad choice, he is moving in that direction to cut off what he perceives to be the HB's route.
Edited by Androth on May 25, 2011 09:56:52
Edited by Androth on May 25, 2011 09:54:07
 
Androth
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Thread moved by moderator.
 
tragula
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Originally posted by jdbolick

No, because the SS doesn't take anything near that path on the weakside handoff. The SS is clearly being forced to react to the TE if the TE doesn't initially engage him on the counter, almost like he's being tractor-beamed into that block.


You likely know best. But here is a play with no blitz (i think) where the SS takes a similar path
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1702263&pbp_id=5281507
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1698702&pbp_id=4986246

Against the weak I counter the SS does seem to blitz
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1702398&pbp_id=5454763

I agree there is something weird going on. Either blitz turned off, or a too early vision check (or something the in SS task is different between SB and weak I)
 
Androth
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I'm unsure what conclusion you are trying to draw here tragula. The first two I am pretty sure the SS is in C2, so he definitely wouldn't be attempting to blitz? I'm not seeing how those relate to this?
 
tragula
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Originally posted by Androth
I'm unsure what conclusion you are trying to draw here tragula. The first two I am pretty sure the SS is in C2, so he definitely wouldn't be attempting to blitz? I'm not seeing how those relate to this?


Just trying to claim that the SS path was may be a result of an early vision check and not mirroring the TE. Not really important.
 
Mike Rogers
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Firstly, need a lot more info here,
- Aggression Settings
- Build
- Verification of DPC play by Bugs Mod (Or recreation of issue by verified DPC play.)
etc

Also its important to note that there are two different SS involved, and they show different behaviour in the linked replays, which seems to indicate there is no 'over riding behaviour'.

I'll go through more games for examples, though, and see if there is something iffy here.

 
VenomCoach
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Mike,

This is so simple.

1. Counters were added.
2. Blocking was boosted during counters to allow them to work. Outside blocking now results in far too many pancakes. And the ability for the blocker to double pancake in a short period of time is ridiculous.
3. The counters as added have no place in football. They are tosses and they are outside by design. 2 things counters aren't in football.
4. None of the plays were tested properly before being added.
5. Offensive dots can block 2 dots at the same time
6. Blockers have no face although they may have a back. They can block someone to the side.


On Defense

1. Pursuit was not addressed when counters were added. The dynamic of adding this play type requires a more intelligent AI than GLB currently uses.
2. Pursuit causes defenders to work to a heads up position in front of the ball carrier and then trying to tackle him. This causes players to run flat down the LOS and into blockers. Someone called it a tackle position. This tackle position would only be considered reasonable for an inside defender pursuing outside. This is not a reasonable football approach to the plays the OP provided, where the defender is outside in.
3. Blitz logic doesn't mean blitz or move anywhere in GLB terms. It means rush the QB until the ball is exchanged. Once the ball is exchanged you go to 2 above. This essentially means your players have no run defense logic.
4. Defensive players in M2M don't seem to have a reasonable run / pass read. They will chase a WR and attempt to engage with him why is beyond me. They will continue to chase him while he blocks or attempts to block.
5. The end result is on counters you have the entire defense working to the middle of the field.
6. The way to stop counters is to take a big enough player to a spot outside the widest receiver. This is typically a LB or DE in the flat zone. The flat zone also doesn't exist in football. Yes there is a flat zone in football but it is equivalent to GLB's Under Outside Strong/Weak Quarter.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1702481&pbp_id=6084001.

Again this is operating as intended and what is intended is completely retarted. In the above example CB2 is blitzing, If CB2 is being blocked by WR2 then why would CB3 continue to try and cover him and in fact work to get blocked by him? Why does CB2 run into the TE/OT? How does he get pancaked by an engaged blocker. Please some D-bag say vision check, he didn't see 2 offensive players and 1 defense player wresting when he was running directly them.

GLB claims to be the ultimate football experience of American Football. How about putting some football in the sim? If not at least play Benny Hill music in the background during games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cFucXYlw94
 
jdbolick
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Another example: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1702828&pbp_id=6338484


Also an example from jakobnielsen where both safeties were set to blitz yet neither did: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1666541&pbp_id=6275867 That's actually a perfect example that blitzing is not working against counters for whatever reason.
 
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