Warrior General Games

First step for an LOT any good ???

no, there are significantly better options.

I, for one, disagree with the above statement.

Originally posted by Darren McFadden
no, there are significantly better options.

Which are???

A LOT probably gets the best value from having a protect and either shock block or foundation piece.

Of course, hard to measure the value of first step as it isn't on the tree otherwise. I personally don't think it's worth it though

I agree that a Protect piece is a necessity, just as a Line General piece is for C. Beyond that, there's really nothing stand-out that one would definitively say "yeah, I gotta have that piece." Shock Block and Foundation are a "good" choice but they're not particularly desirable over any other viable SA choice, including First Step and Quick Cut, or a 5% Hold Block piece. I'm sure we all have varying opinions on every SA, though, so there's nothing to be gained from arguing about it.

I have a theory about Protect not being that good:

If you have a well built OT with high enough agility, vision, blocking and speed, the "protect" part will take care of itself. I think that foundation is much better than Protect. It actually makes your OT stand ground and PERFORM, rather than have the chance of performing well because your attributes are good.

I am just waiting for a shock block piece to come up:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=828981

P.S. THe reason i have not swapped the quick cut piece is because it has +3 agility, and i cannot confirm or deny that it actually works, but from the sack script I am VERY pleased.

How is 70 vision working for you? I'm trying to test the difference between 40, 55 and 70 (train, cap and train, and really load SP into it - all feature very very different build plan implications)

And you have a point on protect, but let me elaborate..

You don't need to be AWESOME at protecting, just good ENOUGH at it. Once you are efficient at protection, you should move toward producing in other areas, such as stuns / holding your ground / run support.

Its like the whole CB thing.. you don't need 105 speed. 90 will keep up (lol coding), so you're good enough - now move on. Or vision on a HB - once you're good enough to see the holes, more does little good. Or if you have never dropped a ball, ... etc.



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That said, I don't think protect is necessarily worthless. Your 90/90/80 OT is nowhere near good enough to produce at the highest level. I don't mean to offend your build - you're only level 53, but there is a huge difference between a mediocre oceania AAA team and a legit pro team.

Again, another big advantage of protect is that it allows you to be a little lax on blocking and agility. With great blocker and protect, a LOT can get away with 80/75 base on blocking/agility, and then can use equip to stock up on strength and.. like you said.. make an IMPACT. Whereas without protect, I'd guess you'd need another piece on agi/blk causing you to be weaker.

Originally posted by RisingChaos
I agree that a Protect piece is a necessity, just as a Line General piece is for C. Beyond that, there's really nothing stand-out that one would definitively say "yeah, I gotta have that piece." Shock Block and Foundation are a "good" choice but they're not particularly desirable over any other viable SA choice, including First Step and Quick Cut, or a 5% Hold Block piece. I'm sure we all have varying opinions on every SA, though, so there's nothing to be gained from arguing about it.

I disagree with that. Foundation is substantially better than first step or quick cut, even better than hold blocks. It's the only SA or ability that gives a bonus to standing ground while pass blocking, even protect doesn't do that.

I don't think "standing ground" on the pass is all that big of a deal as long as the pocket stays intact. Most sacks, at least ones that aren't borderline exploitive courtesy of the DPC and poor blocking code, come from either (1) being instantly reversed-pancaked (2) DE beats the OT around the edge. Maybe if Foundation helps with the former, then I should re-think my opinion of the SA, but Shock Block is going to be more help with the latter. Even First Step would seemingly help with the latter, as it would give you a quicker burst coming out of stun to get back in front of the DE before he gets around.

That said, if you've personally built up the SA and seen the improvement it provides... can't argue with that. I'm content with my little ol' C here who doesn't have much use for it, so I can't say I've first-hand experience.

Originally posted by Octowned
How is 70 vision working for you? I'm trying to test the difference between 40, 55 and 70 (train, cap and train, and really load SP into it - all feature very very different build plan implications)

I noticed a substantial difference between first-cap (48) and second-cap Vision (60) when I was researching what to do with my C earlier in his career, if that's of any help. I don't know about having 70+ Vision.

Thx. All my o-line went straight to 60 vision so I never got to analyze a difference. Wondering if I wasted 20 SP, basically.

Foundation would help with the reverse pancakes on the pass, I'd say... That said, a lot of HURRIES come from the pocket collapsing and the QB moving toward the pass rusher. Often the LDE pushing the ROT toward the QB and never being in position to sack, but a hurry is registered just based on proximity.

With hurries getting a substantial increase in effectiveness next season (see: test results forum), foundation at ROT could really help.

For some reason, I rarely see this from the LOT side.. being pushed back until the RDE is close enough to register a hurry... seems that side is sack or nothing.

I would still like to know if first step is any good???????????????????............................................For any olineman????????

Originally posted by RisingChaos
I don't think "standing ground" on the pass is all that big of a deal as long as the pocket stays intact. Most sacks, at least ones that aren't borderline exploitive courtesy of the DPC and poor blocking code, come from either (1) being instantly reversed-pancaked (2) DE beats the OT around the edge.

I don't agree with this. In the past 3-4 seasons my LOT has only given up sacks due to being pushed backwards (bouncing DE effect). That has stopped since I made a significant investment in foundation.

There is also a well built LG on our team who routinely gets beat who has only 3 in foundation. I'm encouraging him to get it up to 6 or 7 and I'll know for sure then how much of a difference it makes.

I haven't seen that shock block works very well. My LOT has 6 in it, it almost never triggers. Other players with high strength and moderately high shock block that I've seen haven't seemed to consistently stun their opponent either. I'd rather have foundation which works on almost every play than shock block that works only 25% of the time or so that I've seen.

As for first step. I don't believe it really helps at all. In the grander scheme of what a LOT does, a slight bonus to acceleration is basically meaningless.